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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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| Why are they reviewing NVN based on single-player? |
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I've been reading many reviews of Neverwinter Nights, and I've been struck by how most of the reviews seem to focus 90% of their time discussing the single player game. That just strikes me as stupid... The whole point of NVN was the Aurora toolset and the Dungeon Mastering capabilities, and the single player campaign was merely supposed to be giving people an idea of how it works. The revolutionary part of NVN is the toolset and DMing; that's what the developers were excited about, and that's what should come across...
Yet I think some of the blame lies in Black Isle (or Bioware?) for not clearly marketing NVN as a primarily multi-player game that would really take off as Mods were developed and a community of good role-players formed. A lot of people were expecting a single-player masterpiece, and are being disappointed that they haven't gotten one. So they rant about how bad NVN is, when they miss the point about what it's about. But the publisher didn't exactly make an extraordinary effort to inform people about what the game is really about (probably to boost sales... getting into the mod community and finding a gaming group probably sounded like too much work for the average game buyer).
So in the end, it seems like a combo of deceptive marketing and false expectations are bringing the name of NVN down; hopefully the Mod and role playing community will still be trying to make the game fulfill its potential. When NVN starts to get there, THEN I'll think about buying it 
- Wind |
Wed Jul 24, 2002 12:05 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
quote:
So in the end, it seems like a combo of deceptive marketing and false expectations are bringing the name of NVN down
Can't say I agree, Bioware never pushed the SP module, but more the DM capabilities. I have the game and I don't feel like I was decieved by the marketing in any way. I got a fun SP mode with a great multiplayer mode to back it up - which is what I expected.
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= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
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"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 1:23 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Doesn't this belong in NWN General? 
*Val backs up the U-Haul and loads the thread in then drives it over to NWN General*
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:04 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by Val
Doesn't this belong in NWN General?
*Val backs up the U-Haul and loads the thread in then drives it over to NWN General*
Well, I thought that the topic can be generalized enough to warrant its inclusion in the Gen RPG forum, for the disconnect between what gamers expect and what developers are trying to produce is a general one not only limited to NWN...
- Wind |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:58 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hurricane
Can't say I agree, Bioware never pushed the SP module, but more the DM capabilities. I have the game and I don't feel like I was decieved by the marketing in any way. I got a fun SP mode with a great multiplayer mode to back it up - which is what I expected.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that EVERYONE was deceived, but the nature of some of the reviews I've read (both published, and reviews at PC Game Review and other user reviews) leads me to believe that SOME people seemed to be deceived... Whether that deception comes from the players themselves or the publisher is subject to debate; while Bioware did not really hype up the NWN single player experience, it did not make any particular pains to say that it was PRIMARILY a multi-player creation and DMing tool (and player of said tools).
I also did not feel deceived, and that is one reason why I don't have the game in front of me (I probably would have gotten it if single player module sounded more attractive AND the game was about $10 cheaper... as it stands now, I'll get it when there are some killer mods out there, and if I now I can get in with a good gaming group )
- Wind |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:03 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Windwalking
Well, I thought that the topic can be generalized enough to warrant its inclusion in the Gen RPG forum, for the disconnect between what gamers expect and what developers are trying to produce is a general one not only limited to NWN...
- Wind
*Looks at the topic...*
NWN title + NWN subject matter = Moved to NWN forum
General CRPG is usually for CRPGs who have no forum of their own and general CRPG topics. Example: Your preference concerning creatures in CRPGs topic
If you wanted a general discussion on that then you should have indicated in the title and subject matter of your original post. Such as meerly using NWN as an example and not as the main subject of discussion. Now you'll know to do that for future reference and I won't get confused.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:31 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
quote:
Originally posted by Windwalking
quote:
Originally posted by The Hurricane
Can't say I agree, Bioware never pushed the SP module, but more the DM capabilities. I have the game and I don't feel like I was decieved by the marketing in any way. I got a fun SP mode with a great multiplayer mode to back it up - which is what I expected.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I didn't say that EVERYONE was deceived, but the nature of some of the reviews I've read (both published, and reviews at PC Game Review and other user reviews) leads me to believe that SOME people seemed to be deceived... Whether that deception comes from the players themselves or the publisher is subject to debate; while Bioware did not really hype up the NWN single player experience, it did not make any particular pains to say that it was PRIMARILY a multi-player creation and DMing tool (and player of said tools).
I understand what you're saying, and you are correct in saying that the reviewers seem to push the game in several different ways. Now, this is the type of game you either love or hate; it's the kind of game that can both delight and displease. I personally find the SP module very enjoyable and I'm having a blast playing through it - to some reviewers out there, the SP module is all that matters. Now, I know for a fact that some of the RPGDot members hate the SP module - going back to that love or hate it thing. Now, multiplayer is also great, but it's still a little buggy, and on top of that people need to get used to the toolset for any great and wonderful mods start floating around. Anyway, reviewers tend to focus on what the really liked or disliked about the game - be it SP or multi. If I was doing a review I'd push the SP because I have enjoyed it thus far. However, the real "gem" of this game is finding a good DM and having some good ole RPing PnP type games. I think the ideal review would be to push the SP and multi equally, and I believe most of the deception is on the players part. Simply go to Bioware's official NWN site and it's all about the DM capabilities.
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"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:20 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Interesting... But I wonder what the percentage of people playing online is versus those who only play SP. I wouldn't be surprised if we would see a much larger piece of the pie is in the SP part rather than MP.
True, the marketing campaign before launch seemed heavily focused on the SP campaign that ships with the game. But Bioware never hid the fact that this game had powerful multiplayer tools. Heck this was probably one of the most anticipated game of all time! Probably more than 75% of those that bought the game before the reviews came up knew more about the game than anyone else, so they didn't need a review to tell them this was an MP game. And Bioware knew that very well.
As for the reviews, I come back to the ratio of SP players versus MP players again. Reviews are made to inform the mass. If the majority of gamers are SP gamers, that's what they'll talk about mostly. And that's what they did. In my opinion, this game actually needed 4 full reviews. One for the SP mode, one for the MP mode, a third for the DM mode, and a last one for the toolset. All of these are distinct parts of the whole package and have their own qualities and flaws. But reviewers can't do 4 reviews about one game, so they settle on what the people want to hear about.
Before the game came out, the biggest mystery of NWN was about the SP campaign that would ship with it. Anyone that has followed the development of this game since it was announce knew that the SP modules they made were kind of an add-on, like a demo of what could be done with the toolset. Bioware first thought of shiping the game without this module! But then decided otherwise, probably because of publisher pressure since, again, the biggest piece of the pie is in SP, especially since Bioware didn't plan on charging for playing online. Otherwise it would have been a totally different story. And then the SP campaign turned out to be more than decent. Everyone was expecting the SP modules to be sub-par because that wans't the focus of NWN. Most were surprised to find a decent SP experience there, and those who stuck with it till the end found a VERY convincing SP story.
So I think there you have it. It all falls down to this. No one needed a review to tell them that this was a MP game, and a strong one at that. Reviewers need to appeal to the demand of their reader base, hence the focus on SP. At least that's how I see it.
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 3:00 pm |
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mikelhall
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 275
Location: Greensboro, NC |
I think part of the problem is that, to me, NWN is really 2 different items. It is first and foremost a development tool that allows creation and control over modules. In that aspect, the only things that should be judged are the toolset, the dm client, the interface and graphics (not content or the module).
Secondly, the 'packaged' campaign that came with this toolset should be reviewed separate. As it was created (or could be created) with the toolset, and is basically a very good example of what *can* be done with the tools, it is a separate thing altogether.
For example: All of the module reviews you can find at NWVault (and soon here!). The NWN single player campaign should be treated as a module. When reviewed, the reviewer should state that this is the intention. That way any qualms about lack of story, or too much story, or battle, or conversations, etc only pertain to the *module* and not NWN as a whole.
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 4:41 pm |
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Rawis
Gorthaur
Joined: 01 Apr 2002
Posts: 1861
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I would not have bought NWN if it was not SP. Becouse i actualy like SP more than MP in most games, its more relaxing to play SP. |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 6:48 pm |
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mikelhall
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 275
Location: Greensboro, NC |
I hear you. My 9th level wizard was getting tired of being Pk'ed by 20th level barbarians doing 120+ damage a swing...SP is better, but MP would be even better with a group of people you can trust and enjoy playing with (now if I could just find some  ).
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Oh, freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me....
=Member of the Worshipers of the Written Word=
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows=
=Member of the Sixth House=
=Member of the Alliance of Middle-Earth=
=Member of the Non-Flamer's Guild=
=Member of the Followers of Righteousness= |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 7:56 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
There are two in the Nonflamers' Guild.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:34 pm |
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mikelhall
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 275
Location: Greensboro, NC |
Forgive me for my ignorance, but what is the Nonflamer's Guild, where is it and how can I join?
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Oh, freddled gruntbuggly, thy micturations are to me....
=Member of the Worshipers of the Written Word=
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows=
=Member of the Sixth House=
=Member of the Alliance of Middle-Earth=
=Member of the Non-Flamer's Guild=
=Member of the Followers of Righteousness= |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:39 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
The Nonflamers' Guild is a usergroup that started on these forums. You can see our basic statement of who we are here. Our memberlist and request to join is here. All applicants are voted on by the members.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 8:58 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Most members include their usergroup affiliations in their signture.
/Ekim points below
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Wed Jul 24, 2002 10:13 pm |
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