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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
I emailed this to the guy.
quote:
Not trying to be rude, but I just *had* to respond to your Gothic review...
That was the worst review I have ever read...Just going to respond to a few things and hope that you can shed some light on why you slammed the game so harshly.
"The textures that decorate those polygons are also a mixed bag - often detailed and sharp, at other times they appear blurry and washed out."
*Obviously a setting was on/off in your video card config that blurred certain textures, as random blurriness was nonexsistant in the game...
"While they do tend to have better, more detailed texturing, they appear somewhat blocky, and the movement animations are a bit unnatural and stiff."
*Again, at 1024x768 the poly edges were so minimal that you have to be plain nitpicking, therefore misleading potential readers through your bias. The unnatural/stiff comment floored me though. Yes, everyone has good posture in the game, but that's not totally unnatural, the animations were extremely fluent, from the arm crossing, "fixing the crotch" motion, eating, drinking, taking a piss, cooking, siting, making weapons, practicing sword fighting, smoking, or just standing/sitting around talking. Again, it seems as though you either played a different game, or you have some bias against games of this style.
"The sound in Gothic, on the other hand, is one of its weak points. The ambient sound frequently cut in and out during play, and sounded muted and inappropriate when it worked."
*Granted certain ambient sounds cut off when you left the zone, but they were appropriate. You didn't hear frogs and other "swampish" sounds unless you were in the Sect Camp swamp. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that the sounds were inappropriate. They had a few trigger errors on sound zones, but nothing so bad as to take away from the game. The music was "ok", I opted to play without it, to try and simulate a more realistic feeling though.
"One of the things that Gothic has going for it is that you never, ever have to read a line of dialog. Every line spoken by every character in the game is fully voiced (with optional subtitles). Unfortunately, the voice acting is not of the best quality."
*If you could provide readers with what you think is *good* voice acting, then that statement might of had some merrit. For a German-made game that had some of the best English voice acting I've ever heard from a game of this magnitude.
"The actors seem to have recorded their lines not knowing the context in which they were being spoken. When inserted into a conversation, the accents and stresses are often on the wrong words, making the dialogue sound ridiculous. There was also an occasional tendency for the sound to get out of sync with the visual lip-synching."
*"Often"? You seem to be slamming a game that I'm beginning to believe you didn't completely play... Gomez and Cor Angar are the only two characters in the entire game that have a dialog passage that does not accurately reflect the mood during a specific conversation. *sigh* But it gets better, you complain about visual lip-synching when 95% of the games out there don't even USE it, or when they do it's the super basic open/close technique. At least there are more than 2 mouth animations. Developers take an extra step and someone slams them wanting an extra mile. It's no wonder game design is getting less and less immersive, and more run of the mill.
"They have been designed so that you practically never have to move your hands from the keyboard and mouse during play, but instead of simplifying things, they are so convoluted, so confusing, that you will be a third of the way through the game before you actually become comfortable with them. As an example, your 'left' key is used to sidestep, strafe, attack to the left, move things back and forth in inventory, and pick locks, all depending on the situation. It is a good concept, but simply doesn't work well in practice."
*Matter of opinion I guess, at least you called it a minor problem, as I and many other people found them quite easy to use and figure out, while other people couldn't handle the non-traditional "wasd" config.
"Sadly, though, Gothic has its Achilles' heel - bugs. This is honestly one of the most bug-ridden games I have ever played."
*Then you apparently have not played very many games...
"I won't mention the bugs that are frequently reported, but rather just those that I have personally encountered and can confirm."
*Good, because nearly all of them are system related, or pure random "bugs" that won't happen every time. Kind of hard to fix a problem when it is not consistant huh?
"There are minor bugs - graphics glitches and sound problems, such as water disappearing, the character continuing to 'swim' once back on dry land"
*One *small* portion of the swamp camp...Dude, I realize that reviewing a game requires tedious attention to detail, but when writing the review you need to avoid making a moot glitch seem like a game-wide problem.
"the 'z' and 'y' keys being switched"
*Unimportant unless you're cheating. It was made by a German company, their keyboard mappings are different, it wasn't changed in the translation. It has no direct effect on gameplay.
"and an occasional subtitle that they forgot to translate out of German."
*I talked to every person in the game and never saw anything like this. Where did you get your copy of the game from?????
"all of the spell effects, bump-maps, and flames being invisible except at certain angles,"
*I played a pure mage on my 3rd run through of the game, and never once saw an invisible spell effect...You sure your video card config isn't wacked out?
"several game-stopping bugs that require going back to a previous save"
*There are two wenches in the game that occasionally get stuck, but if you save before using them it's not an issue. No other "game over thanks for playing please try again" bugs.
"and the fact that if you quit Gothic and want to restart it, you have to reboot your PC first, or it will lock up hard."
*LMAO! Really? How unfortunate for you.
"The worst was in the last chapter, in which I had my two most recent saved games completely corrupted four different times - almost enough to make me give up, save that I wanted to see how the story ended."
*Another interesting "it only happened to you occurance"...
"It is sadder still that the US version was released on November 15th of last year, and no patch has been released or promised by Piranha Bytes or Xicat Interactive, even though several patches are already out for the German version."
*Research is so important... The US version of Gothic equals the German version with its final patch. *rollseyes*
Comparing this game to Ultima 9 is a sin. I've come to believe that you have hardware problems or a straight bias towards this game because of some moot detail you experienced in the beginning making to hate everything else afterwards. I truely hope that your review goes generally unnoticed by the gaming community at large, and that potential buyers of this product do not base their purchase on what you have written.
Good day to ya.
*edit*
Sorry it's hard to read, but I used bold lettering in my email and I don't want to go back and do the whole bold commands just to post this, it's a LOT easier to read in email though.*/edit*
:smile:
[ This Message was edited by: Llama on 2002-02-19 15:35 ] |
Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:34 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Well done.
But:
Concerning the rebooting...you should have told him him to get a PC from the 21st century.  |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:46 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
One of the worst reviews I ever read.
[edit: opinion changed, see post below]
I bet the author will ignore your mail.
[edit: fortunately not ]
[ This Message was edited by: Gorath on 2002-02-20 06:48 ] |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:46 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
Then let us spam him, all 1000 of us. :wink:
[ This Message was edited by: sauron38 on 2002-02-19 22:43 ] |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:47 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Not a good idea. You wouldn´t want 1000 people to spam you. |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:49 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
On 2002-02-19 15:49, Gorath wrote:
Not a good idea. You wouldn´t want 1000 people to spam you.
True, but I haven't written something worth being 'corrected' for.
[ This Message was edited by: sauron38 on 2002-02-19 22:44 ] |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:54 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
I think the review has flaws. But reviewers do not bash games because they are assholes . Don't flame him, point out his errors, and tell him where he has valid points.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:57 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Hey, it was that guys opinion. It's free to express.
Though in this case it sounds like he was having some hardware issues more than anything else.
At least this guy says he finished it. Some reviews for Gothic look like they went 'I have to use the same button combination for all actions? LOUSY #&$(#*&$ GAME!' and THEN bashed it in a review.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:57 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
quote:
On 2002-02-19 15:57, EverythingXen wrote:
Hey, it was that guys opinion. It's free to express.
Though in this case it sounds like he was having some hardware issues more than anything else.
At least this guy says he finished it. Some reviews for Gothic look like they went 'I have to use the same button combination for all actions? LOUSY #&$(#*&$ GAME!' and THEN bashed it in a review.
You're right, we should only pick out the errors in his review. |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:01 pm |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
I don't believe my email was flamatory...
Perhaps it was harshly written in haste, but by no means was I trying to flame the guy. |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:02 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
no it wasn't, llama - I thought it was well written and reasonable. |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:04 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Your mail was not flamatory. |
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Tue Feb 19, 2002 10:05 pm |
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Guest
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Good evening, all.
I am the reviewer in question, and, as you can see, I am not ignoring Llama's email, Llama. Rather, I stand by my points. They were not written without consideration, they were not spur of the moment thougts that ended up getting printed.
Anyway, I had written an email reply to Llama before someone pointed out this thread to me. Instead of mailing it, I will just reply here.
( Oh, and Llama - no offense taken - I am responding to your email, and I don't respond to emails that I consider flames. In fact, I thank you for stating your differences of opinion with me in a polite manner rather than with vulgarities or insults. )
---------------------------------------
Not trying to be rude, but I just *had* to respond to your Gothic review...
That was the worst review I have ever read...Just going to respond to a few things and hope that you can shed some light on why you slammed the game so harshly.
Actually, it disturbed me a bit that, in order to be honest in the review, I had to discuss so many negative issues. I don't think that I slammed the game - for while I pointed out the negative points, I also pointed out each of those point's positive sides, like the graphics tradeoffs and the amount of voicing in the game. There are games out there that I would gladly slam to pieces - Crusaders of Might and Magic comes to mind - but Gothic is not one of them.
"The textures that decorate those polygons are also a mixed bag - often detailed and sharp, at other times they appear blurry and washed out."
*Obviously a setting was on/off in your video card config that blurred certain textures, as random blurriness was nonexsistant in the game...
Let me clarify what I meant - some textures were clear and detailed - such as wood, trees, generally the smaller objects in the game. Larger objects, however, seemed small, relatively low resolution textures stretched over a large polygon, creating a blurry, indistinct surfrace appearance and what I felt to be an inconsistant feel with the rest of the world. Things like cliff faces, water, the ground, the walls of some buildings. Some textures were always blurry, some were always sharp. It was not some hardware issue, but a design decision.
"While they do tend to have better, more detailed texturing, they appear somewhat blocky, and the movement animations are a bit unnatural and stiff."
*Again, at 1024x768 the poly edges were so minimal that you have to be plain nitpicking, therefore misleading potential readers through your bias. The unnatural/stiff comment floored me though. Yes, everyone has good posture in the game, but that's not totally unnatural, the animations were extremely fluent, from the arm crossing, "fixing the crotch" motion, eating, drinking, taking a piss, cooking, siting, making weapons, practicing sword fighting, smoking, or just standing/sitting around talking. Again, it seems as though you either played a different game, or you have some bias against games of this style.
I was not referring to the edges of the polygons (antialiasing) , which is a function of the hardware more than the engine. I was refering to the polygon count in the mesh of the character models. In some areas, especially hands, arms, and faces, I found them blocky.
Again, with the movements - I was not refering to the variety of actions, which I found to add life to the characters, but rather to the way they performed those actions, especially the larger activites such as walking, running, jumping, climbing, and so forth. I found them very stiff and unconvincing.
"The sound in Gothic, on the other hand, is one of its weak points. The ambient sound frequently cut in and out during play, and sounded muted and inappropriate when it worked."
*Granted certain ambient sounds cut off when you left the zone, but they were appropriate. You didn't hear frogs and other "swampish" sounds unless you were in the Sect Camp swamp. I don't see how you came to the conclusion that the sounds were inappropriate. They had a few trigger errors on sound zones, but nothing so bad as to take away from the game. The music was "ok", I opted to play without it, to try and simulate a more realistic feeling though.
Yes, I heard the frogs in the swamp. I also heard birds a few places in the forest. But most of the time, I couldn't figure out quite what the sounds were supposed to be. The sounds just didn't feel right[ to me, and I can only report on what I felt while playing. You yourself mentioned that sounds cut out abrubptly when leaving a zone, and that triggers didn't work properly - the net effect was that the ambient sounds cut in and out during play, exactly as I said.
"One of the things that Gothic has going for it is that you never, ever have to read a line of dialog. Every line spoken by every character in the game is fully voiced (with optional subtitles). Unfortunately, the voice acting is not of the best quality."
*If you could provide readers with what you think is *good* voice acting, then that statement might of had some merrit. For a German-made game that had some of the best English voice acting I've ever heard from a game of this magnitude.
"The actors seem to have recorded their lines not knowing the context in which they were being spoken. When inserted into a conversation, the accents and stresses are often on the wrong words, making the dialogue sound ridiculous. There was also an occasional tendency for the sound to get out of sync with the visual lip-synching."
*"Often"? You seem to be slamming a game that I'm beginning to believe you didn't completely play... Gomez and Cor Angar are the only two characters in the entire game that have a dialog passage that does not accurately reflect the mood during a specific conversation. *sigh* But it gets better, you complain about visual lip-synching when 95% of the games out there don't even USE it, or when they do it's the super basic open/close technique. At least there are more than 2 mouth animations. Developers take an extra step and someone slams them wanting an extra mile. It's no wonder game design is getting less and less immersive, and more run of the mill.
Sorry, this point I just completely disagree with you on. As I said, the acting itself was halfway decent, but the lines were out of context in the conversations in ways that stuck out like a sore thumb to me. "*If you could provide readers with what you think is *good* voice acting, then that statement might of had some merrit." Well, Baldur's Gate 1 - 4, Fallout 1-2, Commandos 1-2, Deus Ex, NOLF, Planescape: Torment, Homeworld + Cataclysm, Starcraft + Brood War, Aliens Vs. Predator 2, Grim Fandango, Freespace 1 - 2, and that is just off the top of my head.
Oh, and I wasn't referring to imperfect lip-sync - I was refering to the times that the sound got so out of sync with the conversations that my characters words were off by several seconds - resulting in my mouth moving to the Necromancer's words, or my lines appearing to come from Lars.
"They have been designed so that you practically never have to move your hands from the keyboard and mouse during play, but instead of simplifying things, they are so convoluted, so confusing, that you will be a third of the way through the game before you actually become comfortable with them. As an example, your 'left' key is used to sidestep, strafe, attack to the left, move things back and forth in inventory, and pick locks, all depending on the situation. It is a good concept, but simply doesn't work well in practice."
*Matter of opinion I guess, at least you called it a minor problem, as I and many other people found them quite easy to use and figure out, while other people couldn't handle the non-traditional "wasd" config.
As you said, a matter of opinion. Personally, I did get used to it, but I can't think of any other game I have had such a time getting used to the controls on. I know of several people that gave up after trying the controls. They worked - as I mentioned, it was minor, but look at how many people have complained about this very point - they could have, at the very least, had an option for more traditional controls.
[B]"Sadly, though, Gothic has its Achilles' heel - bugs. This is honestly one of the most bug-ridden games I have ever played."
*Then you apparently have not played very many games...
 You might be surprised, there.
"I won't mention the bugs that are frequently reported, but rather just those that I have personally encountered and can confirm."
*Good, because nearly all of them are system related, or pure random "bugs" that won't happen every time. Kind of hard to fix a problem when it is not consistant huh?
I didn't say they happened every time, or to every person. I said they were bugs, and that they were. The bugs I experienced I also saw mentioned by other people. Even if they are system related, they are bugs - I have nothing out of the ordinary in my system, so, chances are, if, say, the missing torch flames and magic effects are particular to GeForce cards, other owners of GeForce cards will experience them as well. And that is enough people that the bugs bear mentioning. Again, I say that it was not my plan to bash Gothic, but the bugs were there and I would have been dishonest to review the game without mentioning them.
"There are minor bugs - graphics glitches and sound problems, such as water disappearing, the character continuing to 'swim' once back on dry land"
*One *small* portion of the swamp camp...Dude, I realize that reviewing a game requires tedious attention to detail, but when writing the review you need to avoid making a moot glitch seem like a game-wide problem.
"the 'z' and 'y' keys being switched"
*Unimportant unless you're cheating. It was made by a German company, their keyboard mappings are different, it wasn't changed in the translation. It has no direct effect on gameplay.
Actually, if you look at the screenshots I posted, the one of me on Gomez's throne has the FPS displayed, so I did cheat as far as that goes - and to get past the second bug-stuck winch Anyway, I wasn't referring to a game-wide texture problem. The reference was to the vast number of tiny problems - whether it be a texture that was so obviously missing that you recognized the exact texture I was refering to, or the keyboard not being properly converted, or losing the menus and interface after being attacked in conversation mode, or any of the other dozens of minor one or two location problems, it shows a lack of attention by the developer. I played the game all the way through, just me, and thoroughly. A single thorough play through by a QA rep at Xicat would have identified all the problems I noticed before they were released with the game. This was not done, and the game and the player had to deal with the problem to play. The game suffered for it, and thus, it received mention in my review.
"and an occasional subtitle that they forgot to translate out of German."
*I talked to every person in the game and never saw anything like this. Where did you get your copy of the game from?????
Electronics Boutique In the northern mountains, near where you find the troll and a focus. There is a watch tower to the right before you get to the clearing. The path curves around to a small camp and a cave. There was an NPC in the cave, a named one, though I forget what the name was, who had German subtitles.
"all of the spell effects, bump-maps, and flames being invisible except at certain angles,"
*I played a pure mage on my 3rd run through of the game, and never once saw an invisible spell effect...You sure your video card config isn't wacked out?
"several game-stopping bugs that require going back to a previous save"
*There are two wenches in the game that occasionally get stuck, but if you save before using them it's not an issue. No other "game over thanks for playing please try again" bugs.
That means that, in order to play the game, you have to read a FAQ or walkthrough first so that your game will be playable. Which means that you have to have read somewhere about the problem existing first. Not a big deal? To the average consumer, that means there are two seperate locations at which they will be unable to continue the game, and, if they didn't have an earlier save, they would have to start from scratch. I'm sorry, but that is a very bad thing.
"and the fact that if you quit Gothic and want to restart it, you have to reboot your PC first, or it will lock up hard."
*LMAO! Really? How unfortunate for you.
That was a mistake on my part, I should have said 'I had to reboot', though I have seen other people mention the same problem. http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=2243&forum=13 for instance. I seem to remember others as well.
"The worst was in the last chapter, in which I had my two most recent saved games completely corrupted four different times - almost enough to make me give up, save that I wanted to see how the story ended."
*Another interesting "it only happened to you occurance"...
All I know for sure is that it did, in fact, happen to me. On a general note, most of the bugs I mentioned I have seen other people complain about as well. From the restarts/lockups to the invisible spell effects - and I have never had these problems on any other games I have played on this system, and I have played everything from the oldest 2d classics to modern games on it. Some of the problems may have been between Gothic and my SB Live! or Gothic and my GF3, but the problems are Gothic problems, and I feel that makes them fair for a Gothic review.
"It is sadder still that the US version was released on November 15th of last year, and no patch has been released or promised by Piranha Bytes or Xicat Interactive, even though several patches are already out for the German version."
*Research is so important... The US version of Gothic equals the German version with its final patch. *rollseyes*
Yes, I know that, though I realize that I could probably have stated it more clearly in the review. The point was that the original company was willing to support their product, but that Xicat apparently is not.
Comparing this game to Ultima 9 is a sin. I've come to believe that you have hardware problems or a straight bias towards this game because of some moot detail you experienced in the beginning making to hate everything else afterwards.
I don't think so - I found them both to be great games with a sad case of distributor indifference to the consumer. But I digress. The fact is that I really, really liked Gothic. It wasn't a game that I hated and grudginly mentioned the good things about - rather, it was a game that I loved and felt that I had to mention the weaknesses of to be fair. That comes out in my review, I think:
"Given all of this, I would still have had to say that Gothic was one of the best RPG's out there, one of the most impressive and most believable. "
"...story itself is rich, showing a that a lot of work was done on the world's background, and the plot keeps moving with numerous twists and surprises that aren't predictable the way many RPG's are. "
I truely hope that your review goes generally unnoticed by the gaming community at large, and that potential buyers of this product do not base their purchase on what you have written.
Good day to ya.
And a good day to ya I am sorry you feel that way, but how could I honestly say that this game is perfect when it is not? I played the game all the way through, but for two reasons only:
1. I knew about the first sticking winch and pre-saved, then reloaded twice to get by.
2. Even having read about the first winch, I hadn't heard about the second game-stopper, and had too use the Marvin mode cheat to get through.
The average player that hadn't read about the problems before hand would have wandered around the world for hours and hours trying to figure out what clue they had missed that was preventing the door from opening, finally checking a guide to discover the true problem. How would you rate a game that could not be played by the average player due to oversights by the programmers that the distributor refused to fix? Like Gothic or hate it, the above remains true.
I know that you are angry that my review was negative, and I am sorry that it was, but the review was honest, considered, and based on my own experience with the game rather than with what the game could have potentially been. People pay to own the game that is on the disk, not for the potential the game had - and I payed for my copy of Gothic - it was not one of the reviewers' freebies out there. I really hope Xicat puts out a patch that fixes the bugs in the game - I would really love to play again, perhaps as a caster this time.
Blackhawk
PS - I am not familiar with BBcode, so I hope this all comes through correctly.
blackhawk@stratosgroup.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Blackhawk
Managing Editor,
GoneGolders Magazine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:05 am |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
You clarified many things with your comments, though they have left me even more puzzled over why you gave the game such a poor rating. :/
But, everyone has their own opinions I was just voicing mine to you, as you did to readers.
One thing though:
quote:
Sorry, this point I just completely disagree with you on. As I said, the acting itself was halfway decent, but the lines were out of context in the conversations in ways that stuck out like a sore thumb to me. "*If you could provide readers with what you think is *good* voice acting, then that statement might of had some merrit." Well, Baldur's Gate 1 - 4, Fallout 1-2, Commandos 1-2, Deus Ex, NOLF, Planescape: Torment, Homeworld + Cataclysm, Starcraft + Brood War, Aliens Vs. Predator 2, Grim Fandango, Freespace 1 - 2, and that is just off the top of my head.
I mentioned of that magnitude, regarding the amount of speach that had to be recorded, and added to the game. It's a lot easier to get a few lines of good acting versus a gigantic book of spoken dialog recorded with the same intensity.
Baldur's Gate had very little speach in it, mostly short one liners during scripted scenes. Otherwise at least 80% of the dialog was text based only. It holds little merrit against what PB tried to do with Gothic. The same goes for the two Fallouts and Torment, though Torment had very little true spoken dialog, much like in the BG series. Just a main character here and there with a short amount of dialog, then back to reading. The Fallout games had the best lip synching I've ever seen in a game, but that's the bonus of working with sprite based faces, you can do more with them. But again, there was little true spoken dialog in those two games, probablly equall to Diego's dialog if that much. 
Never played AvP2, but the demo didn't impress me much, nor some of the other games you've mentioned, but I'd be shocked if any of them had the dialog size of Gothic. It's not easy to do what they did, but what they did do was incredible, though of course some people feel different. |
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Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:32 am |
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Bane
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 09 Feb 2002
Posts: 39
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everyone, put on your fanboy and or fangirl goggles!
then everyone can get along and we can be all one big happy family again!
[ This Message was edited by: Bane on 2002-02-19 22:44 ] |
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Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:40 am |
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