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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
quote:
This is some disturbing stuff. Is the US headed towards being a ChristoFascist state? Declaring war on people if they are a different color or religion? Vietnam, Iraq, Bosnia, Rwanda, when does this crap end?
What? Youre trying to back away from it now? 
"NidPuterGuy", you clearly are implying in your post that the US waged the stated conflicts, and they were because the poor innocent people were different religions and/or races than us. That's why everyone responded accordingly, because it's right there in green and white.
"ChristoFascist"? 
Just where do you get that from what Dubya said?"ChristoFascist"? From what it reads, he said just the opposite. Just another example of how it doesnt matter what the guy says or does, it will be construed as what his critics want, even if it completely 180 degrees from what was said.
EDIT- One more thing, you geniuses might want to think twice before suggesting that youre considering assassination on a message board on the worldwide internet.
Edit II- took out paragraph ridiculing some people's version of military history, and subsequent suggestions on what they should or shouldnt do. I really dont want to jump onto this sinking ship of a topic. I peered in on a lark, and feel nauseous for it.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain
Last edited by xSamhainx on Sat May 08, 2004 11:15 am; edited 2 times in total |
Sat May 08, 2004 7:46 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by goshuto
State one episode where Israel's alleged nuclear arsenal posed a threat to the US.
What has that to do with the US protecting Israel from UN law?
quote:
Several of those "insurgents," as you put it, have carried terrorist attacks aimed at the people of Israel, including attacks deliberately aimed at children.
So you believe two wrongs make a right?
Furthermore, it has to do with the US blind support of Israel. Why would the rest of the world be outraged, while the US parroting "Israel must defend itself!"
quote:
What the heck does that have to do with your Zionist conspiracy theory? Can't the electorate voice its opinion?
That's an example of why the US goverment doesn't voice much crititicism against Israel. Tried it once, didn't like it.
That MAY be a reason as to why Ariel Sharon has allegedly said stuff like this:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
quote:
1981. Osirak's nuclear reactor.
No Bush administration ever gave any nuclear weapons to Saddam.
Yes they did. 1989 was still a year when Iraq was a valuable ally to the US.
EDIT: forgot this:
quote:
Originally posted by Val
I'm not writing it off as a "simple" bonus. It was definately one of the most positive outcomes of the war, but it was not the reason the Union and Confederation went to war. Lincoln was able to get away with the Emancipation Proclamation because he only freed the slaves in the rebel states. He couldn't risk losing key border slave states that had stuck with the Union. If he had entered the war with the stated purpose of freeing the slaves the outcome of the war may have been different or, more likely, would have taken a great deal longer to win due to losing the support of those states. The goal was to preserve the Union.
Frankly, the move was brilliant.
Errrr... neither this nor that "letter" changes the fact that Licoln's victory in 1860 gave states like South Carolina the reason they needed to unite against the antislavery forces of the North. The popular discussions at the time was about slavery, which carried a huge weight on the opinion of the populace. Slavery was STILL one of the major factors for the war.
Let's not forget teh Amistad. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 9:21 am |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
What has that to do with the US protecting Israel from UN law?
A veto is just part of the law, isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
So you believe two wrongs make a right?
Furthermore, it has to do with the US blind support of Israel. Why would the rest of the world be outraged, while the US parroting "Israel must defend itself!"
Defending itself is a wrong? Killing in self-defense is wrong? Oh, you're right, Israel should just shut up and quietly watch as hundreds of its citizens get torn to bits by suicide bombers and the Palestinian Authority government, for unfathomable reasons, refuses one peace proposal after the other....
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
That's an example of why the US goverment doesn't voice much crititicism against Israel. Tried it once, didn't like it.
Erm, and isn't a democratic government supposed to take into account the opinion of the electorate?
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
That MAY be a reason as to why Ariel Sharon has allegedly said stuff like this:
"Every time we do something you tell me America will do this and will do that... I want to tell you something very clear: Don't worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it."
So, and because Sharon, who has always had a big mouth, says something like that, we'll all blindly believe it....
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Yes they did. 1989 was still a year when Iraq was a valuable ally to the US.
You're saying the US government gave nuclear weapons to Saddam?
One word for you: Heh. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 3:07 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
A veto is just part of the law, isn't it?
Oh oh! Can I use the "Heh" word now? Can I? Pweeeze?
quote:
Defending itself is a wrong? Killing in self-defense is wrong? Oh, you're right, Israel should just shut up and quietly watch as hundreds of its citizens get torn to bits by suicide bombers and the Palestinian Authority government, for unfathomable reasons, refuses one peace proposal after the other....
Yeah, shooting missiles at old men in wheelchairs in self-defense is perfectly fine. Especially when those old men are part of what's holding back the anger and the suicide bombers of the Palestinians.
By that account, it's also perfectly fine for the Palestinians to fight back against those who steal their lands.
quote:
Erm, and isn't a democratic government supposed to take into account the opinion of the electorate?
Yes. And that goes to SHOW how RELIGIOUS opinions affects the US stance on Israel.
quote:
So, and because Sharon, who has always had a big mouth, says something like that, we'll all blindly believe it....
So, because the prime minister of Israel said something, we'll blindly refute it?
quote:
You're saying the US government gave nuclear weapons to Saddam?
No. This is somerthing you've missed out on, WMD are not ONLY nuclear weapons. They're Weapons Of Mass Destruction, meaning biological weapons, for instance. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 5:14 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Oh oh! Can I use the "Heh" word now? Can I? Pweeeze?
You didn't answer my question.
quote:
Yeah, shooting missiles at old men in wheelchairs in self-defense is perfectly fine. Especially when those old men are part of what's holding back the anger and the suicide bombers of the Palestinians.
The US doesn't negotiate with terrorists. I don't see why Israel should.
quote:
By that account, it's also perfectly fine for the Palestinians to fight back against those who steal their lands.
The Israelis didn't "steal" Palestine any more than the English "stole" America from the natives or Americans "stole" Texas from Mexico.
quote:
Yes. And that goes to SHOW how RELIGIOUS opinions affects the US stance on Israel.
No, it shows the freedom they have to express their opinions, based on whatever they want, regardless of what you think.
quote:
So, because the prime minister of Israel said something, we'll blindly refute it?
Yes. He's not the owner of the truth, last I checked.
quote:
This is somerthing you've missed out on, WMD are not ONLY nuclear weapons. They're Weapons Of Mass Destruction, meaning biological weapons, for instance.
I missed nothing, I only mentioned nuclear WMDs in my posts. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 7:36 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Wow, I did pretty good for being half-drunk tiger last night when I posted in the forums 
I just have to launch about Israel here, Im so tired of seeing the Islamic Nazi Party 2004 being whitewashed.
I would add tho, since the conversation of course drifted into Israel, is that it's funny how the classic white supremecist conspiracy theories about "Israel and Jews" have actually infected the Left's thinking! Suddenly the entire mess, everywhere, would all suddenly stop happening if Israel dried up and blew away. Israel controls everything. Jews control everything. Muslims everywhere, in the Phillipines, Indonesia, Russia, Serbia, would just drop their arms and stop trying to kill their neighbors. Everything would be just fine if Israel just ceased to exist.
What I dont understand, is why in the Left's mind, muslims are simply *not allowed* to lose territory like everyone else does in conflict. Everyone else loses a conflict, they lose the conflict. But muslims are special. Whether its 5, 50, or 500 years ago, they just arent allowed to lose a conflict like everyone else. Everything they do subsequent is excusable. Ahmed Yassin simply was an "old man in a wheelchair"? That poor old man in a wheelchair was the founder of Hamas, and one who sanctified suicide bombing as part of his "spiritual guidance" to children, and everyone for that matter. The Passover massacre at that hotel was enough to warrant his death, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. These people have the same ideological view of jews and what should be done with them, as any Nazi ever did. The same people who no doubt would in self-righteous glory demand any KKK or SS be executed on sight, for some reason give people a pass whose ideology when it comes to Jews, women, homosexuals, militarization of children, are arguably worse.
The truth of the matter is that most palestinians killed are killed accidentally, while the Israelis are going for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or other terrorist targets. Quite to the contrary, jewish civilians (especially the most fierce, children) are deliberately targeted.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sat May 08, 2004 8:33 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by goshuto
The US doesn't negotiate with terrorists. I don't see why Israel should.
Oh? In the end, Israel is performing its own extrajudical justice and with that, a crime. What happened to the Human Rights Laws? The Geneva convention forbidding political assassinations? Funny how the US was the ONLY country to vote against an UN resolution on this crime, a crime condemned by the rest of the world.
The US doesn't negotiate with terrorists? Ummm... I heard somewhere that they helped Usama back in the days. But then bin Laden was a valuable ally. Funny how things change.
quote:
The Israelis didn't "steal" Palestine any more than the English "stole" America from the natives or Americans "stole" Texas from Mexico.
And what word would you use? Conquer, which is just a more violent form of stealing? Are you saying that native Americans didn't have the right to fight back?
quote:
No, it shows the freedom they have to express their opinions, based on whatever they want, regardless of what you think.
Hmmmm... so opinions suddenly don't have an impact on democracy? Or just opinions steming from religion? Lobbyism, you know what that is?
Evangelists are too big of a group to be ignored.
quote:
Yes. He's not the owner of the truth, last I checked.
I see. So you're basically just refusing to listen at all. Great discussion technique!
quote:
I missed nothing, I only mentioned nuclear WMDs in my posts.
Ah, then you were arguing a completely different thing than I.
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
The truth of the matter is that most palestinians killed are killed accidentally, while the Israelis are going for Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or other terrorist targets. Quite to the contrary, jewish civilians (especially the most fierce, children) are deliberately targeted.
The truth of the matter is Israel is taking the Palestinian lands, killings their civilians (many NOT in "accidents"), and pressing the palestinian people into a corner.
Truth of the matter is, Palestinians can't attack Israelian suicide bombers and then balme civilian casualties on "accidents" or cross fire.
quote:
That poor old man in a wheelchair was the founder of Hamas, and one who sanctified suicide bombing as part of his "spiritual guidance" to children, and everyone for that matter. The Passover massacre at that hotel was enough to warrant his death, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. These people have the same ideological view of jews and what should be done with them, as any Nazi ever did.
So the massacres in the Chabra and Shantila camps are enough to warrant Sharon's death? And they are just the tip of a far greater iceberg.
BTW, great job at equating the mindless hating of Jews by the Nazis to the Palestinian hatred steming from Israel occupying their lands and killing them in droves. Give yourself a pat on the back for that one. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 10:14 pm |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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I'll admit I haven't read all of the above, but I think you guys are taking the most extreme members of the societies are general representatives. Rather than the political leaders, think about the ordinary people whose main concern is getting their kids to school and making a living. Extremists who hate everyone on the other side based on their membership of that group are rarely more than 10% of any population. I've met MANY Jews and MANY Muslims, and they are just normal people the same as anyone. They might argue about politics but they would never kill anyone. Moderate Muslims need to reign in their extremists, and moderate Jews need to reign in their extremists too. It's a massive failure of political leadership on both sides.
Try a moderate Jewish newspaper like Haaretz for some perspective.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/425091.html
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/425093.html |
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Sun May 09, 2004 6:54 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
Be that as it may, I just dont see, hear, or read about Jewish militias and dictators worldwide, attempting to wipe out or convert by the sword everyone in their region who doesnt believe in Kosher and Hanukka. I dont see Jews killing other Jews on their holiest of days because of their specific interpretation of what Kosher and Hanukkah really is. I dont see Jewish populations held in a grip of fear by their Jewish dictators. And I also see too few and far between muslim special interest group, left-wing white-guilt group, civic leaders, or dictators openly condemning the constant and vicious attacks of this supposedly small minority of the obviously troubled "Religion Of Peace".
I keep trying to pull out the view a little wider than the West Bank, but you guys just keep lapsing into a rendition of "Sympathy for the Palestinian". This is far bigger, and potentially far more dangerous for the civilized world.
I dont want to get emotional about all this, but I cant help it sometimes. I knew I shouldnt have even opened this thread, its just a big waste of time.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain
Last edited by xSamhainx on Sun May 09, 2004 7:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun May 09, 2004 6:52 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Be that as it may, I just dont see, hear, or read about Jewish militias and dictators worldwide, attempting to wipe out or convert by the sword everyone in their region who doesnt believe in Kosher and Hanukka. I dont see Jews killing other Jews on their holiest of days because of their specific interpretation of what Kosher and Hanukkah really is. And I also see too few and far between if any muslim special interest group, civic leaders, or dictators openly condemning the constant and vicious attacks of this supposedly small minority of the adherants to their obviously troubled "Religion Of Peace".
Know why? Because theyll be killed if they do, and replaced with someone else. None of the editors of Haaretz are going to die for their stances, for or against Israel.
Hahaha... do you even LISTEN to Muslim leaders? People like Arafat have condemned suicide bombing 'till they sound like broken records. How many Jews condemn the airstrikes by Israel?
Israel is the probably MAIN instignator of Muslim anger towards the west. Muslim extremists are not ONLY fundamentalist killers. People like bin Laden have stated many times that the Israel situation is his main gripe towards America.
I would like to see examples of these muslims who kill simply because others don't believe in their religion. See examples of those who remake Christian crusade history. |
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Sun May 09, 2004 7:17 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
*massages temples with huge paws*
why do you do this to yourself, sam...
As soon as I hit submit, I knew the token calls for peace for the benefit of white guilt crowd by such luminaries as Yassir Arafat, one of the godfathers of modern terrorism, would be cited. He only has preached the doctrine his entire life, when the going gets rough he can throw the white guilt crowd a bone or two to keep up the illusion that he is interested in anything but jihad. Im not spending any more time on this, it's just redundant after awhile. Look at the "mission statements" of groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Quadia, Al Shmaeda, whatever. Realize the Crusades were over a long time ago, Hexy. Im concerned with the here and now, not centuries past. Look at any of the countries which are Islamic, how many have any kind of decent human rights or democracy. What is their stance towards women, and their tolerance for other faiths. I feel bad for the moderators, that have to literally read all this over and over again. Sorry mods, I'll shut up now
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Sun May 09, 2004 9:11 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
As soon as I hit submit, I knew the token calls for peace for the benefit of white guilt crowd by such luminaries as Yassir Arafat, one of the godfathers of modern terrorism, would be cited. He only has preached the doctrine his entire life, when the going gets rough he can throw the white guilt crowd a bone or two to keep up the illusion that he is interested in anything but jihad. Im not spending any more time on this, it's just redundant after awhile. Look at the "mission statements" of groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Al-Quadia, Al Shmaeda, whatever.
Oh man, this just keeps getting better. A fact is a fact. You didn't see any Muslim figures speaking up against suicide bombers; I gave an example.
Mission statements? All of them are recitings of American "attacks" and meddling in the middle-east especially by Israel. Muslim terrorists are primarily an effect, not a cause.
Jihad does not mean waging war against all non-muslims. It means ridding the middle east of western influences in the form of corrupt leaders and occupying armies.
Oh well, too bad this debate is at an end. |
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Sun May 09, 2004 9:37 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
@NidPuterGuy and MageofFire:
Oh no! Hating Bush is such a crime!
Here's 20 reasons Bush sucks from the recent compilation "Rock Against Bush."
1. The national debt under Bush Jr. has increased so drastically that the average American's estimated share of the national debt will an astronomical $24,000 compared to $500 when Dubya first took office.
2. Under Bush Jr. there are now 43,000,000 Americans with no health insurance.
3. Bush Jr. is responsible for an unemployment rate of 6%. There are now 9 million people out of work in America; 3.3 million more than when Bush took office.
4. He cut healthcare benefits for war veterans.
5. Bush Jr. deserted his unit during Vietnam and was reportedly AWOL for over a year from his assigned unit: The Texas Air National Guard, or as it's referred to by other military outfits, "The Champagne Division."
6. Despite a 13% unemployment rate among those aged 16-24, Bush Jr. proposed to eliminate youth opportunity grants, a program that provides job training to the nation's youth. It was a 225 million dollar program in 2002 and it's now being done away with so Bush can have more money for Iraq.
7. He cut funding for 375,000 low-income college students and reduced pell grant amounts to such a severe degree that it effectively caused 84,000 students to no longer be eligible for pell grants. Pell amounts have been overall reduced for 1.5 million students. . . it's safe to say that the Bush daughters aren't eligible for financial aid, so this won't effect the opulent lives of anyone Bush Jr. may know.
8. He withdrew from the International Criminal Court.
9. He is the first president in U.S. history to refuse UN election inspectors (during the 2002 U.S. elections).
10. He is the all-time U.S. (and world) record-holder for most corperate campaign donations.
11. The Bush Administration had twice as many FBI agents fighting the drug war than fighting terrorism prior to 9/11. Even after 9/11, more than 2,000 FBI agents are wasting their valuable time assigned to the war on drugs.
12. His proposed "free trade" agreements would result in the loss of U.S. jobs to foreign markets and the exploitation of third-world workers.
13. John Ashcroft
14. He has taken eleven official executive actions to undermine reproductive rights. . . how long will it be before women are stripped of their right to choose?
15. He failed to fufill pledge to get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive."
16. He wasted federal resources on a PR trip to Baghdad where a staged a Thanksgiving meal at 6:00 a.m. with troops that were screened based on their political affiliation. And the turkey? It was a prop.
17. His refusal to fire or even reprimand Lt. General Jerry "Our God is bigger than their God" Boykin. Perhaps it's because Boykin said of the president, "George Bush was not elected by a majority of voters in the Unitied States. He was appointed by God. He's in the White House because God put him there."
18. After sending troops off to die in an unjust and unprovoked war, he still has yet to attend any soldier's funeral.
to be continued. . .
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Mon May 10, 2004 12:40 am |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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You guys take a real "scattershot" approach to debate!
@Mage of Fire: I think it's pretty questionable whether about half those points apply to Bush personally. It's better to stick to the most "provable" accusations rather than mix stuff about his draft record (I would have dodged the draft myself), his corporate donations (no. 2 is Bill Clinton), free trade agreements (that can't be summed up in one sentence), together with important stuff like his policy of "Reagan proved deficits don't matter" and the crazy Iraq war.
Regarding Palestine/Israel:
@Hexy: It's ridiculous to try and portray Arafat as a "good guy". You just pour your credibility down the drain.
@Samhain: Jeez, you have a big problem with Islam, huh? Of course there are no Jewish dictators - that's a misleading argument. It's like if I said "last year Muslims built 10000 hospitals while Jews only built five".
There was a time when Islam was the religion of "enlightenment" and Christianity was the religion of war and "barbarity" - the Bible has passages permitting behavior like slavery and stoning - the point is that the problem is not RELGIOUS, it is POLITICAL.
You can have devout Muslims who are lovely, and devout Christians who are nasty, as well as the other way round. The Muslim countries that are dictatorships got that way for political reasons. They didn't become dictatorships then say "hey, what religion would suit our nice new dictatorship... I know... ISLAM!" Every country was basically run by the military up to about 1688, regardless of religion. In the West, we changed to parliamentary democracy for POLITICAL reasons, not religious. The sermon on the mount may have helped, but there is similar stuff in the Koran. Islamic countries are lagging behind, like non-Islamic non-Western countries are too, but they hopefully will catch up eventually.
Of course radical Islamic mistreatment of everyone who isn't a beardy Muslim male is disgusting - but the West has only started on the road to civil rights recently, and it wasn't due to religion but to POLITICS.
There are Muslims in places like Iran who are dying to try to bring political reform to their country. You are doing them a disservice. And if Islam is irredeemable, how can you continue to justify invading Iraq on humanitarian grounds? They are not going to convert to Christianity, so aren't you condemning them before they start? |
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Mon May 10, 2004 4:09 am |
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