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Morporkian\TooLoud
Guest
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| Sorry. I also overreacted. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Greyslayer
Danicek:
You're right. I have to appologize for the ranting. Let me explain. I had just logged onto this site and read the news. As you can probably tell I never was impressed with Morrowind and other Bethesda games such as Daggerfall either. Fallout 1 & 2 I absolutely LOVED. In fact FO2 is my favorite RPG of all time. Yes it was buggy and had it's own problems. But to hear that a Dev like Bethesda is doing 3 was just ... well horrifying is alittle too dramatic, yet I could almost say that  . I shouldn't put Bethesda down so much. Morrowind and kind did have vision and many other interesting aspects. I, like others, am just very worried about how they will handle FO3 based on their past styles and inclinations. For us Fallout is a cherished memory. Some don't even want Fallout to continue, fearing sequels will tarnish the series. I'm not going that far, but I did have other hopes for developers. In the end, you are right. I have jumped the gun out of worry and should just wait and see. And pray that Bethesda does the ultimate RPG of all time justice. Again, sorry for the very negative posting.
I have to give you credit, for apologising. Not many do that nowadays. Your original assault just made you sound like an uptight FO-fanboy and I had to strike back. English isn't my first language and I jumped into conclusions, so my counterstrike didn't really work. 
This is the truth; I quickly got bored with both FO2 and Morrowind. The first one degenerated into boring duckshooting when you got the Enclave armor, kind of like Arx Fatalis with it's Ylsid Armor(spel.?), and the other became tedious after you got like 100k of money and a Demonic Daikatana, everything was a pushover. Also the AI was very bad in both games.
Still I hate neither one. They got good pacing, over-mediocre stories and rather good, if not quite depthless, game mechanics. Leagues better stuff than some of the shit game companies pour out these days. I understand your worry for FO3, I would be very worried if Bg3-license ended up to someone like Piranha Bytes(makers of Gothic). Those guys have no experience in making a game like it.
It's the same with Bethesda and Fo3. Peopöe just need to wait and see.
Be it Thief or anything else, I seem to love making rants. I must register here someday.  |
Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:10 am |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I know it isnt going to happen, but the only way I can see Bethesda not being eaten alive for this is to run each and every feature etc past the fans BEFORE they start implementing it.
Depending on its response they can either can the feature completely, or just implement it to try and prove the fans wrong. But at least that way they would have an idea if they are WAY off track or not before they devote months of development time to a feature that will ruin the game for the fans.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:17 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
Chekote: As sad as it is I have to say that the fans of the original games constitute a very small part of the player base for FO3. The original series never sold much (Something that also happened to critics' favourites like System Shock and Planescape Torment), which means a deviation from the original mechanics will only be noted by a small (albeit very vocal) part of the players. However, no sane company decides on features based on how many rants are in its favour in the forums, but rather how good it would be for the game. If Bethesda started asking approval for everything from all the armchair designers on the internet (who in general are quite clueless) I would be truly worried. A game isn't a collection af features but an interaction of features. Cabal design is hard within a company and probably impossible with the entire fan base involved. Please don't take this post personally, you are just the last of several voicing similar opinions. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 3:40 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
No matter how clueless these armchair designers may be, they are still fans of the specific series none the less.
I was not suggesting that Bethesda let the fans decide everything about the game, I merely suggested that they get the fans oppinion before they go ahead with something.
Surely you cant deny that if a feature is hated by 99% of the existing fanbase, it is most likely a bad idea.
I know I am going to get flamed for this, but it has to be said:
Considering the outcome of Morrowind, it is not just the "armchair designers" who are clueless...
Edit: I didnt notice the part at the end of your post about how difficult you claim this would be. All they have to do is a have a poll on the Fall Out 3 homepage for each feature. I dont see how thats hard to manage.
I understand completely that a product is not just a collection of its features, I build applications for a living. Bethesda would be the overseers if you like, they would have the final say on everything and make sure it all gells together, but each feature should be passed by the fans first. Then Bethesda can either choose to heed, or ignore their advice.
P.S. I hope what you claim about ignoring the existing fanbase is not true, because otherwise FO3 will just be another butchered license turned into mainstream tripe...
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:26 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Chekote: As sad as it is I have to say that the fans of the original games constitute a very small part of the player base for FO3. The original series never sold much (Something that also happened to critics' favourites like System Shock and Planescape Torment), which means a deviation from the original mechanics will only be noted by a small (albeit very vocal) part of the players.
Oh yeah, we`ve seen how few Fallout fans are when Van Buren was cancelled, and how few there are now, judjing from Slashdot, Blues, RPGDot, NMA, Bethesda Fallout3 threads in their forum, etc...
You know the last time i heard that bs? When FOBOS was beeing made. See the success of the game with their small "deviations". And then stop talking about things you have superficial knowledge.
B. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:49 pm |
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Guest
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Bethesda had better take a hard look at what happened to Interplay after FOBOS and FOTactics. And Eidos after DX:IW. I know I would never buy another game from either company even if doing so would guarantee me a place in heaven at the right God. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:32 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
Chekote: Of course the fans should be heard, but the 100k-or-so diehard ultra conservative fans should not stand in the way of something that feels fresh. I personally belive they will listen alot to the fans (they are known to have done so in the past), and I very much hope so. I just hope that they can make the hard the hard decition and ignore them when needed. Being a software engineer (I am currently in collage becoming one) I am sure you have heard about the rule of giving the customers what they need, not what they want (or think they want). Thanks for keeping your post civil.
Guest: Look, I really didn't want to start a flame war. A vocal minority can be very loud when there are 300k of them (to my knowledge neither of the FO games ever made it past 500k in sales). That's a lot of people and they are of course heard alot on forums. The thing is that the people on the forums doesn't always represent the player base very well. This is a well known phenomenon among developers, which anyone reading game design litterature has discovered. Some of the sources you mentioned are litterally crawling with fallout fanboys and it's probably the same ones in all places. As far as the bethesda thred goes, the community there are terrified at even the prospect of 10000 dihard FO fans flaming away in the forums. No matter if the fans of FO are 300k or 400k, a project the size of FO3 has to sell at least 1000,000 copies to make a decent profit. That means they will be a minority. An important minority, and one I am sure will be respected an listened to, but a minority none the less. Please keep it civil. I like discussing, but flaming gets tedious. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:33 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
@BillSeurer, there are several balance issues but I can't think of a better character creation and development system. Can you?
Yes, lots.
One of the biggest problems is the fundamental way characters advance. With tagged skills and the ability to dump all your points in one skill you can get as good as you need to be in any skill in just a couple levels. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:47 pm |
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Pinky's Brain
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 40
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They are the minority which played the games, and created the brand name ... if they want to create their own post apocalypic game fine, but dont rape the franchise which got its fame through that minority's vocality for cheap PR. It just isnt polite. |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:36 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Lorgosin
the 100k-or-so diehard ultra conservative fans
100k ? Make this 1k and you´re closer. The vocal people in the well-known forums are probably not more than a few dozen.
"1 Mio units to earn money"
You surely got your numbers wrong. Making a PC RPG (read: a non-mainstream game) with such a high break even would be insane for your first game in a franchise. The few exceptions I can think of are everything by Bioware and maybe the next ES, which is of course no first. Even 500k would be risky. 500k * $20 (just to pick a number for a self-publishing dev) means a budget of 10 Mio. That´s still a lot. You can bet most Euro RPGs don´t even have 1/3 of this.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:04 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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If anyone is interested, there is about 30 pages of discussion on the elder scrolls on the topic. Some of it has a certain amusement value, although most is endless repetition of the same concerns and counter-arguments that you have already read here
http://www.elderscrolls.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=comm&PHPSESSID= |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:12 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
Gorath: I agree with you on the less than 1k estimate. I was just letting the people with their estimates in the millions (like the guest) down easy. And the most active flamers can, as you pointed out probably be counted in the dozens. Quite frankly I don't even think the FO1 sold much more than 100k, much less had that many rabid fans. I was just trying to prove a point by showing that even with vastly exaggerated numbers the statement that the majority of the FO3 players would be previous fans of the series was ridickulous. As far as the sales estimates goes, 1000,000 might be an exaggeration, but the fact remains that ten years ago the bar for economical success was at 100k. We all know how much budgets has risen since then, and for 10m is considered at most average budget by now. You probably know that most developers has problems turning a profit with alot more than 100k copies sold. Add to that the additional cost of making an RPG an you've got one hell of a budget. The common technology in this case might help though. As for the euro RPGs, I don't know if you remember that JooWood was in dire straits not long ago. Gothic may return the investment but it's barely turning a profit. Anyway, I probably exaggerated, but if the goal is to make a profit (which it must be), 500k would at least be on the lower end of the success scale.
GhanBuriGhan: Read that one. The FO fan invation has begun. With that rate of flaming none of them can have jobs.
Last edited by Lorgosin on Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:22 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Lorgosin
I am sure you have heard about the rule of giving the customers what they need, not what they want (or think they want).
Yes I have. Its what I work by. But to understand what our customers need, I have to be in constant liaison with them as the project progresses. Each stage of any project that I work on is put under heavy scrutiny by my colleagues and my clients.
The needs are a realistic interpretation of the wants
You cant give people what they need, until you know what they want... |
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Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:57 am |
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Guest
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quote:
The vocal people in the well-known forums are probably not more than a few dozen.
*sigh* Congrats, you just quoted Chuck Cuevas. No matter the number is the fact is that they were enough to shut Interplay fora, generate bad word of mouth, help to kill FOBOS and therefore FOBOS2, who was in production, and expose Interplay how it really was and is and not how the PR people were trying to make it. And if they are so few why did Bethesda bought the rights? To loose money in a game no one wants to buy?
And please stop saying i flamed anyone, just because someone disagrees of you doesn`t mean the world was set on fire. Relax a bit, play some Gothic2, wich is 100 times better than Morrowind
B. |
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Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:24 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
I posted my estimation of the number of hardcore Fallout fans. If it happens to be identical with Chuck Cuevas´ then so be it.
Fan sites are not a good means to measure the size of a target audience because you don´t know how many potential customers took the time to register. Bethesda surely has better numbers, for example NPD sales statistics, which made the license look like a good investment.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:52 am |
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