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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
But, please, someone get him an editor.
Ultimately, that would be me. Rend is Austrian and after a first draft and the changes, our editor Moxie went over it but suggested we maintain some of the language idiosyncrasies because this is a more personal article than most reviews and we should keep that flavour - and I agreed and posted it.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:29 pm |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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I agree with almost everything except the bit complaining about bandits etc getting decent armours like glass/daedric. I am past level 40 now and I think it is quite rare to see a bandit in full glass armour or a maurauder in full daedric armour. Typically they will have 2-3 pieces with maybe 1 in 20 having a magical item. I don't consider that too far fetched because at this point there are about 20-30 gates to oblivion still open so I would expect daedric armour to be flooding the market, what I don't like is the fact that it is still not available for purchase in stores. I have have sold 200 or so pieces (Maybe it is the bandits re-buying it DOH!!!!) and yet no one sells it. |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:34 am |
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Another guest
Guest
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Nice review and fair comments. To me Oblivion is a strange mix of sheer excellence and incredible mistakes, frustrating judgement like no other game before. Great ups and horrible downs, that's Oblivion.
It's beautiful, lovable and terribly addictive, however when it comes to role-playing, the game *seems* to offer everything, but 10-15 levels along the road you will find that only one road was feasible after all: you focus on combat skills only or else you start a new character focusing on combat skills only. It's the only way to keep up with the ever-scaling hordes, since they scale to a fighter of your level and not to your leet intellectual or nimble skills.
This seems to nullify role-playing and the whole character creation scheme well enough, but thankfully there's a hole in the system: focus your character on combat and combat skills only(!) and then play and train whatever class you want to play. You must play Oblivion the Oblivion way: wonderous, flawed, binary. |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 2:16 am |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
The review's a good read IMHO, honest and to the point(s). I really do not envy anyone who must make an official review of this game.
Reminds me of discussions on a different message board pertaining to Vincent Price, our perceptions of him, and whether he was a great actor or not. To some such as myself, he's a brilliant and funny actor, to others he's just a typecast, mediocre at best, lovable ham. In either case, we enjoy his performance in whatever he's in most times, and just his entrance in a film often brings a smile to my face personally. Is he really the grand shakespearean actor we think of him as, slugging it out in low-grade fare seemingly beneath him at times? Or is he really just an endearing ham whose advanced scenery-chewing techniques is given more credit than is due, simply because of fond childhood memories and such? Whoever wins the subjective coin toss that round most likely will ultimately have the same conclusion anyway- we enjoy his performances immensely in either case.
Is the game enjoyable? I think it is, as most people seem to think as well as Rend, each with his own caveats of course. No game is truly perfect, yet no game is asked to be as this one is demanded to be. But rarely is a game also so customizable and malleable, I believe that has to count for something in the end. Whether it's truly just a dumbed-down action RPG on a massive scale, or truly an "alternate life" RPG as I've seen it billed, it boils down to whether the game is truly worthy of the lofty stance it has achieved. Is it fun? Is it a game that people are going to be playing five years from now? Is it a schlocky, endearing ham whose performance is judged on a sort of a sliding scale, or a truly fine performance to be savored?
I think in the end all the psycho-babble and nit-picking boils down to just a fun game regardless of either, even for myself, who is playing it completely vanilla, no mods. It's an enjoyable, vast, expansive title that has I think effectively moved the beleaguered Elder Scrolls lineage forward yet again, with the usual camps of people who love it or hate it. If you liked Morrowind, chances are you'll like this game, and vice-versa. It is an Elder Scrolls game, with all the endearing Elder Scrolls quirkiness that people such as myself have come to expect, and enjoy. Rend is obviously both an ES and RPG fan, thus I value his opinions far more than some general all-purpose game reviewers on other sites. It's a fun game, simply put, with of course whatever caveats you wish to include. That's about the best review you can give this game.
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:59 am |
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dagoo77
Guest
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Been searching for some of the mods Rendellius mentioned, particularly the levelling one. However, having difficulty finding these among all the other chaff and leveling mods. Can anyone in the know, list the official names of some of the mods that are discussed here. |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:20 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
I remember back when Ultima VII The Black Gate came out. For that time period (1992-1993) it was considered 'hyped' by gaming mags. When it finally came out and I played it I was in utter awe of the game.
Yeah, it ran at a slide-show pace on my clunky old 386/16 MHz. There was a really bad bug where Lord British's castle could start de-rezing - literally. And another nasty bug where keys could vanish from your inventory. And speaking of inventory, it was a pain in the butt to manage all your stuff given the 'gumps' system.
And I remember the outrage on Compuserve. How Ultima VII was a FAILURE compared to Ultima IV - VI. I remember the bitter resentment gnashing of teeth regarding the real-time combat. I remember the cries of utter rage and the hate speech that followed regarding the game's object-oriented puzzles.
Yet, 14 years later, the game is rememberd as being one of the best CRPGs of all time. My impression of the negative responses to Obllivion is that history will take a similar course for Oblivion as it did for U7. Oblivion may not have perfect form, but it has a substance that is far from skin dip. And that will give the game a lasting, memorable value.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:56 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Thanks for a great review Rend! 
I had no idea that all those mods were available, it sounds like you have made it into the game that I wished it was also. Please please pleeeeaaaase can you list all of the mods that you mentioned in the review and where I can get them?
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:20 pm |
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Lucky Day
Guest
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best, most balanced review I've seen yet.
Ditto on disagreeing about reviewing the game "out of the box" without mods because that's a major part of this game. Modding is not an afterthought.
Also, I too am having trouble findinf those mods mentioned. I have a few but I haven't heard of some of those you mentioned.
Does anyone have links?
One thing that doesn't seem to be mentioned is the Oblivion modding community does not have a good central database like Morrowind had. With Planet Morrowind it was easy to get the best mods, check reviews, and check downloads.
Its not so simple now and requires a fileplanet account to do any downloading.
A host of other websites have stepped up but they can be jsut as confusing. |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 6:39 pm |
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Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
Guest
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This is interesting, because I was one of the people railing against Ultima VII.
It is a good game, but I didn't like the mini-mountains (loss of scale to the world) and the real time combat, which in my opinion was generally uninterpretable (you just waited until it was done to figure out what was going on)
I think my criticisms still stand, but it was a hell of a good game. Just a very different game than the earlier Ultimas.
In fact, the succeeding multimedia revolution (remember those crappy games with lousy actors in embedded real video footage.) and 3d revolution (endless shooters and first person games with limited environments) set RPGs back by a decade.
When Oblivion came out, I told my brother that Elder Scrolls V is likely to get back to the level of item interaction that Ultima VII had 15 years earlier. When you think about it, Elder Scrolls has made 1 key, dissappointing sacrifice that Ultima also made, the continent just keeps getting smaller and smaller. The 'continent' of Tamriel is now about the size of Puerto Rico. I was and am very dissappointed with this, but I intend to write some mod adventures with quite large landmasses not claiming to go from mountain range to mountain range on either side.
Dark ages in the CRPG world occur every time there is a technology paradigm shift. Lets hope consoles don't cause another one. |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:08 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
This is interesting, because I was one of the people railing against Ultima VII.
Based on how well you articulate yourself with the rest of your comments, it's doubtful that you fall into the enraged-ape category of today's internet-gaming-forum-poster.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
It [Ultima VII] is a good game, but I didn't like the mini-mountains (loss of scale to the world)
They changed the scale in U6. I was always sorta amazed at how that was still such a key gripe in U7. My take was that what you lost in terms of size and scale you made up for with a more seamless world. I'm big on seamless worlds so for me that change was more of a plus than a minus.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
and the real time combat, which in my opinion was generally uninterpretable (you just waited until it was done to figure out what was going on)
We agree here. One of the cool things about the Ultima games were the cool weapons you'd eventually outfit your characters with. The pre-U7 combat pardigm was turn based, which really demonstrated the effectiveness of the next best weapon you'd acquire. This was less apparent in the frenzied combat of U7. Much like yourself, I'd enter combat and sorta wait to see what happened. It was just too difficult to manage combat effectively during every single encounter over the course of the entire game. Defintaley, a minus.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
I think my criticisms still stand, but it was a hell of a good game. Just a very different game than the earlier Ultimas.
And that right there is 'THE' issue. If a developer doesn't some how change/evolve/innovate from one iteration of a series to the next, the mob (aka us gamers) will riot, overturn cars, and burn down buildings in the name of, 'it's just more of the same JEEEEEEEEEEZ.' On the flip side, when a developer does change/evolve/innovate from one iteration of a series to the next, the mob (again, aka us gamers) chime in with, 'you've dumbed it down JEEEEEEEEEEEZ'). It's a fine line to walk and given the mentality of annoymous-internet-posters, one where no matter how you walk that line you're going to be verbally assualted.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
In fact, the succeeding multimedia revolution (remember those crappy games with lousy actors in embedded real video footage.) and 3d revolution (endless shooters and first person games with limited environments) set RPGs back by a decade.
I'm waiting for a technology that can specifically erase my memories of FMV games. Yes, they were quite aweful. Thank god that all went away.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
When Oblivion came out, I told my brother that Elder Scrolls V is likely to get back to the level of item interaction that Ultima VII had 15 years earlier.
I'm with you on this. I don't see that type of world/item interaction in Oblivion or the rest of the TES series. Arx Fatalis was fun in this regard, but that game was nowhere near as interesting as an Ultima game. Gothic 1 and 2 come near U7 in some ways but not all the way. It is surprising that so few gamers seem to regard world/object/environment interaction or 'world simulation' as that important and so much time has passed without a single CRPG trumping the breadth of world-simulation found in U7.
quote:
Originally posted by Grumpy the Ectoterrestria
When you think about it, Elder Scrolls has made 1 key, dissappointing sacrifice that Ultima also made, the continent just keeps getting smaller and smaller. The 'continent' of Tamriel is now about the size of Puerto Rico. I was and am very dissappointed with this, but I intend to write some mod adventures with quite large landmasses not claiming to go from mountain range to mountain range on either side.
I have mixed feelings about this. I was not only a Daggerfall enthusiest but also a Beta Tester. And if you played Daggerfall, you know that it was GIGANTIC in terms of world-size. Of course there was nothing really out there to do in the wilderness. Seriously, there was nothing there. I see a lot of posts on the official oblivion boards waxing nostalgia about how big Daggerfall was while seemingly having amnesia about the fact that in the vast majority of all that open space there was nothing there but open space.
Then you take games like say gothic 1 or 2, which by comparision to say Morrowind or even Oblivion, are much smaller in terms of world size. But just about every square inch of those games has meaning and purpose. One Gothic 3 developer phrased their design orientation to world size someething like, 'every gaming inch must be packed with goodness' or something like that. And it's true. In both Gothic 1 and 2 you are constantly rewarded for checking out and investigating every nook and cranny. I like the idea of a huge world, but if it's going to be mostly devoid of things to do, I'd prefer a smaller world that is less empty. Ideally, you could have the world size of Daggerfall cram-packed with content on the level of Gothic 2. But that's asking a lot and I haven't seen a game yet that does that.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:26 pm |
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Moxie
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Apr 2004
Posts: 38
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Samhain's comparison to Vincent Price is unique and the most creative Oblivion analogy yet.
MadGamer, thanks for bringing U7 into perspective. It's easy to forget some of the incredible pain that came along with it at times. Also, it's interesting how much stronger our emotions become when games get this good. Our passions aren't inspired on the flaws of mediocre games (though they can be on devastatingly bad games).
One of the reasons that I really like Rend's review is the mix of emotions that it embodies. Though one guy called it bi-polar, I believe it really resonates with the competing feelings that a lot of us have (even if we disagree on points).
Another ditto on reviewing mods vs. out-of-the-box. The mods are part of the design from the ground up and are easily added or removed from the splash screen. They aren't hacks. It definitely allows designers to err in a direction when it comes to personal preference when they know they're core community can easily customize they're own playstyles.
A mod site I'm using now is TESScreens' Oblivion Mod Wiki (http://www.tescreens.be/oblivionmodwiki/index.php/Main_Page) as people are linking mods from multiple sites and it has the cleanest interface without registration requirements.
A mod article to follow-up on this is being worked on now. When it goes up, it'd be great if the RPGDot community added they're favorites in the comments so we could follow up with a community favorites article. My current favorite is the Weathered Color Map that takes the colorized map and adds folds and creases to it. It's a great collaboration of mod artists, but I can't find the page at the moment.
It'd also be good to organize some well thought out mod compilations. The Oblivion Wiki has a spot for those, but there's only one that takes a kitchen sink approach. |
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Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:32 am |
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gympion
Village Dweller
Joined: 13 Jan 2006
Posts: 3
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For those of you asking for a link to levelling mods, this is the one I'm using and its working out really well for me:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=367842
Don't know if this is the exact same as the one that Rendellius is using. I really can't stress enough how much more fun this has made the game - it kinda brings a bit of that Gothic feel to the game When you start off you have to be careful where you go and you can't wait to level up to go out and kick some butt!
On topic, I think Oblivion is a landmark game and truly deserves the great reviews its recieved, even though I found it somewhat 'broken' out of the box. Also i think that any game that ships with such a powerful editor should be rewarded for doing so and its perfectly reasonable to mention this in a review. |
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Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:32 am |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Moxie
MadGamer, thanks for bringing U7 into perspective. It's easy to forget some of the incredible pain that came along with it at times.
Aye. And you're welcome!
quote:
Originally posted by Moxie
One of the reasons that I really like Rend's review is the mix of emotions that it embodies. Though one guy called it bi-polar, I believe it really resonates with the competing feelings that a lot of us have (even if we disagree on points).
*Whistles*
Uhhhh.... that'd be me who wrote that. I was only joking though. I appreciated Rendelius' review and completely understand where he's coming from. And it's quite refreshing to see a critical analysis of the game without it being an outright rant which is all you see on the official boards.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:04 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I have some concerns with reviews being done on a modded product. Where does one draw the line between a game being "broken and fixed" (not saying this necessarily applied to Oblivion) versus "designed to be modded"?
Similarly, if we're going to accept reviews on modded games, then I wonder how that affects other games. Would NWN become the greatest game in the history of the world?
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:37 pm |
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