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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
I actually dont want to have anything to do with a series of retro d and d from the 80s modules crpgs. I think they would all suck regardless of bugs.
Would depend on the choice of 80's AD&D modules - not all stank like the ToEE series. There were some really brilliant modules around, most notably the original Ravenloft/House on Gryphon Hill combo, the UK Adventures series by later Warhammer authors and some of the tournament modules. Heck, there was even a very neat Greyhawk campaign - Fate of Istus.
But if the current trend continues I guess the next one they'll do will be the 'Against the Giants' series, the only one which was even cheaper than TToEE. |
Wed Dec 03, 2003 3:14 pm |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
quote:
Originally posted by dagoo7
This is what I don't understand. From my own subjective perspective this is a great game. I just don't understand why there is so much anger towards the game out there. I know the initial release was buggy and the bugs are by no means all gone now. But the implementation of detailed tactical combat and rules system seems incredible to me. I really had no technical issues and only stopped playing prior to patch based on comments on forum, probably wouldnt have noticed most of the bugs unless someone told me about them. Biggest problems for me was length, enemy AI, and ocassional balance but these are all issues that could easily be addressed in a sequel. Maybe some find the combat too detailed and tactical and therefore tedious. I heard this complaint about Wiz 8 but it hasnt stopped me from playing through 3 times so far. Maybe I am just a dinosaur.
Criteria for a good RPG are largely subjective. You seem to place a lot of emphasis on the tactical combat, which is good. For a person like me, I have extra requirements like good dialogue, a good story, good quests, etc. along with good combat (and I'm a fan of turn-based) to make a game really worth my money. I shied away from ToEE after friends told me what the game was like. Very light on story and full of horrendous dialogue and little direction. Also, I find some of Troika's design decisions to be irksome, like not providing descriptions for identified items.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Wed Dec 03, 2003 5:09 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
In response to some of the orignal posts points:
Kotor is an rpg definitely. I mean... its Neverwinter nights almost exactly but better. How can one be an rpg and the other not? They are the same thing.
Rift runner will likely be the next one I really enjoy. Then Dungeon lords. Those two arent too far off.
I didnt like TOEE... because its just a bad game, not because of the bugs. It does have a good interface though and nice graphics so perhaps I would check out another d and d game by troika. But Id wait to buy it definitely. I actually dont want to have anything to do with a series of retro d and d from the 80s modules crpgs. I think they would all suck regardless of bugs.
One thing Id like to point out : More games have already been released in 2003 than any other year by a HUGE margin. The amount of people in the game creating industry making games right now is just huge compared to days past. There will be so many crpgs made you couldnt possibly even start them all. I just did lionheart > TOEE > KOTOR and I couldnt finish one before the other came out. They wont all be hits like baldurs gate, but theyll be coming and they wont be slowing down.
KoTOR is NOT better than NWN. 
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Wed Dec 03, 2003 11:37 pm |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
I actually dont want to have anything to do with a series of retro d and d from the 80s modules crpgs. I think they would all suck regardless of bugs.
Would depend on the choice of 80's AD&D modules - not all stank like the ToEE series. There were some really brilliant modules around, most notably the original Ravenloft/House on Gryphon Hill combo, the UK Adventures series by later Warhammer authors and some of the tournament modules. Heck, there was even a very neat Greyhawk campaign - Fate of Istus.
But if the current trend continues I guess the next one they'll do will be the 'Against the Giants' series, the only one which was even cheaper than TToEE.
I'm not sure about that at all. You can say that this module is more interesting than that one.
Some of them are quite creative and worth reading. But do we have any reason to believe that the pen and paper module is the format to make an entertaining crpg from? If so what is it? There are a lot of really bad NWN modules. In fact, its whole trip was supposed to be recreating pen and paper modules with a dm or some such thing, its marketing focus.
All those modules are lame. IMO. NWN wasnt even released with a pen and paper module it was released with a homemade crpg style game.
I remember thinking about TOEE before it was released and thinking nostalgia. I wouldnt do that again obviously I have a different perspective.
I much prefer something designed with the computer user in mind.
I just think about it like this. When black Isle made planescape torment, why did the make what they made as opposed to copying and adapting a planescape module? It wouldnt have been any different to use the IE engine.
Why did they make Icewind Dale as opposed to "the tomb of horrors" Sure would have saved some creative talent paychecks to use existing material to base it on....
Its because that would have sucked, then and now. Thats a bad idea. Nostalgia only makes you want to look at the box. |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 6:31 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I didn't say they HAD to make games from old modules. But some of them actually had really innovative and interesting plots and characters, so if they absolutely wanted to recreate old modules via a computer game, they might have picked others which might have been a good deal better suited.
By the way, I absolutely disliked NWN. It was one of the biggest let-downs for me so far (the others being Dungeon Siege and Max Payne).
I had this flash of nostalgia as well when I heard about TToEE. Greyhawk was my first AD&D boxed world set. But knowing that the AD&D franchise computer games including the BG series (excluding PST) bored the heck out of me, I knew I wouldn't buy it, anyway. |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:17 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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First off, ToEE was one of the most brilliant modules ever to AD&D, especially for its time. Ravenloft is utter crap, shown in games like Stone Prophet etc.
Secondly, the reason why it DOESN'T fly to make a game revolve around Discworld-dragon-in-city saga or the LotR, is because they are very story-centered, while ToEE is all about the benj... I mean the rough'n'tumble.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 7:28 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Whatever floats your boat.
For me, an RPG needs to be immersive, meaning, good NPCs and atmosphere. In my book TToEE (both paper and computer, I've seen and fiddled with the latter at the GC) was plain and utter hack'n'slash cheapness. If I want carnage only, I'll play one of my beloved shooters or beat'em ups or RTSes.
I wasn't talking of the Ravenloft setting but the (two) modules the later game world was based upon - the story wasn't exactly new, the setting a classical Gothic movie one, but the interlacing of reality planes as happened when playing both Ravenloft/House on Gryphon Hill as one (which was an option) was the first of its kind. It was an innovative approach to pen and paper RPGing.
As long as the mass-market-targeting, dumbed-down, storyless hack'n'slash approach remains the only propagated way of making a computer RPG nowadays, I'll refrain. I've seen many disappointments at the latest trade fair, with only a few exceptions which are mostly scheduled for next year. So I'm still hopeful some new trend will show, or at least some good trends won't die completely. |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 10:34 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Sorry to be dragging up this old, forgotten, almost decomposed thread... but there was an issue raised in the early posts that I don't think was really addressed.
Some US gamers expressed concern that a lot of good European games might not even be making it over there. I think you are right to be worried, and I for one am galled at the totally illogical methods of some US publishers (take on a great European game, make absolutely no effort to market it properly, then when sales are low declare it a failure - then, rather than rectify their own mistakes and make the next attempt successful, they just abandon the idea entirely and ignore the wishes of their own home audience - idiots! Grrr, it makes me so mad )
Anyway, now I've finished ranting... why don't you just import? The games you're talking about will be localised for the UK, so you can get English-language versions, and PC imports are rarely expensive. If a game has a ridiculously long wait before release in the UK, I often import the US version (for about the same price).
For those that don't like the idea of not supporting their home industry - if they aren't giving you what you want, then removing your support is the only way you're going to convince them to change. If enough of their audience starts sending their dollars overseas, they'll get the message pretty darn quick. |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 4:52 pm |
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Joeman
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 03 Jan 2004
Posts: 254
Location: USA |
All I can say is it's all supply and demand, people.
The problem with single player game is that, it's considered introverted and anti-social.
In American culture, introversion is considered BAD!
Personally I prefer single player CRPG. When you play a great game like gothic I, it's just like reading a novel. In some cases, it's like reading a great novel and you have control over the story and how it ends. I don't have to put up with sore losers or cheaters.
Single player RPG will die when there is no demand for it. However, I do think the market in this sector of industry is very saturated. Some of the companies will make some unfinished products and go belly up.
There are so many MMORPG that came out recently because this genre enjoyed great success in last few years mostly because it's new. Right now we are seeing a bubble just like the dot com's and it will burst sooner or later. |
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Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:10 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
A couple of quick comments. Piln, I import a lot of games because they are either not released here, (Gothic) or arrive 3-4 months after being released everywhere else. Jaz, while NWN was not great, the opportunity to play online mods with my friends here, makes it one of the best purchases I've ever made. Joe, I hate The MMORPG anyway, so if they all go belly-up, it won't bother me. I prefer SP, even though I love playing online with friends. They are very different experiences.
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Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:27 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
@Corwin: I like playing online with my friends as well, but not NWN anymore. Tried it, and it was fun while it lasted, but there are other online games I enjoy inherently more. Those tiny... things (~models) make me aggressive.
And no, I want a good game straight out of the box. If a good game gets a good mod, that's one thing. But I don't like spending money for a game I don't like, and then try to compensate sunk costs by waiting for a neat mod to (perhaps) come along. |
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Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:55 am |
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Wysardry
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 12
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Well, if these few games are bigger, better and more challenging than last year's offerings, one or two should last the entire year.
Maybe someone has finally made the game itself more important than the flashy graphics.
Well, I can dream can't I?  |
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Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:04 pm |
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mkreku
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Uppsala, Sweden |
Ok, I guess it's time to worry again. Someone mentioned Fallout 3 as one of the examples that the single player RPG is not dying out. Uhm.. Great.
Right now, I can't think of one RPG I am looking forward to. there's nothing on the RPG horizon. Gothic 3 (or Gothic 2 expansion) might come in a few years, who knows. They're too far off, though, for me to long for them. STALKER: Oblivion Lost might be worth checking out, but that's also a long way from release.
Other than that I see.. nothing. At least nothing in the next couple of months.
Why doesn't someone make a GTA RPG. Huge, free world, VEHICLES, lots of quests and a deep, satisfying character development system. GTA Vice City could have been really good... (not that it isn't really good already)
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Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:31 am |
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