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Emech
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 19
Location: Brisbane, Australia |
| RPGS: resurgance in popularity because......... |
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In my opinion RPGs have had a resurgence because:
1. Point & Click Adventurers have few titles to choose from and thus are looking for new stories.
2. Other genres are looking to add "depth" to their games by increasing character attributes and player choices (Heroes in RTS, Augs and mulit-path choices in FPS etc.) exposing the casual gamer to RPG concepts.
3. The development of online communites has brought gamers together despite distance and they are looking for games to play together.
4. The Lord of the Rings movie.......der
and
5. A general trend to evoke character empathy in modern games. It seems designs are heading more towards creating player "ownership" of the character more than story development as such.
Discuss in 3 pages or less  or just feel free to add you 2 cents 
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The majority are not always right |
Fri Jul 05, 2002 10:00 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Since RPGs have a long development cycle, I really doubt LotR had much impact. I imagine several of the current RPG crop were already under way before the movie was even announced.
Some of your other points certainly make sense. I'd think you'd have to add something about the growth of MMORPG. I'd say the success of Everquest (and UO before it) showed the money-types that there was a demand for RPGs in general. Once the first Baldur's Gate sold so well, the beancounters bought into the idea, and the developers could start coding...
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:51 am |
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Emech
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 19
Location: Brisbane, Australia |
Re: Long development pre-movie.
With so many "entertainment groups" being multi-platform (TV,movie,book,toy & game) I'm confident publishers were "aware" of the LOTR movie devlopment and the potential wind falls it might bring....
It is very said that most everything is motivated by money now days though..I think its a MAJOR downside of the success of the capitalist cultures...we seem to have lost some of our passion/heart.....
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The majority are not always right |
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 12:04 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Makes sense. If we go that route, then probably you have to throw Harry Potter mania into the same mix as LotR.
Perhaps one other factor to consider is the new consoles out. While the older consoles had some RPGs available, they certainly didn't measure up to PC games. The newer consoles can run Morrowind....
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 2:45 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
I think it's all Black Isle's fault.
I think that big money developers generally stayed away from RPGs because they were this little understood mess type games that many got wrong. After all, one of the main aspects of RPGs is interaction, and that was sorely lacking in the days gone by.
What Black Isle did was to show that RPGs can follow a structure. And they used that structure over and over again. Bioware followed suite and fleshed it out some more. What this told the money makers is that RPGs can be structured and institutionalized as well. Once that was done, it was only a matter of time before they will start popping up like mushrooms after rain.
The problem with this is the following. Whenever a process becomes institutionalized, it goes through a predictable pattern of development. This pattern says that we are to be saturated with "RPGs" for the next few years, while they will all be there for only one reason: maximum profit. Meaning, we as users are taking the back seat. The proliferation of RPGs will be huge and quality will be dismal. Eventually, when money stops coming in from just releasing a box with a POS inside and a label "RPG" on its side, then and only then are we to enter the second golden age of RPGs. When users start demanding quality and quality is the only thing that makes money.
It'll be few years until we get there though. 
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 3:16 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Such cynicism!
Gamers have to be one of the hardest groups to please. Have success and people complain. Fail and people complain. Innovate and people complain. Follow a proven formula and people complain.
There is no pleasing you people.
Personally, I'm happy to see so many rpgs that are doing so well.
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 5:36 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Now Val, other than Moondragon, I don't think we were being unhappy at all. Merely observations. Although, to reject the financial motivations of our hobby would be naive. About the closest thing to a gripe I've got is that it's hard to keep up with all the stuff coming at all at once. I never did give MM9 much of a chance, being bookended by Wiz8 and Morrowind as it is. In quieter times, I probably would be enjoying it now. I didn't even purchase DS or NWN, since I can afford to be picky right now.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 6:30 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
It'll be few years until we get there though.
I agree with Val, you're being far to cynic for your own good 
It'll be a few years until we get good RPGs again, you say? Hmm... This year (and it's only halfway gone) has seen two (yes, 2!!) Great RPGs, namely Morrowind and NWN. When's the last time you saw 2 great RPGs coming the same year? I haven't for a very long time.
Yes, the industry tends to be milking the cow nowadays though. Since RPGs are so popular, everything has to have an RPG element to it. But, as far as I see, that's a good thing. It often works to some great effect! Sometimes it doesn't, but it can't always be good.
But two high profile, highly anticipated RPGs that come out the same year, within a few months from each other, and both end up being close if not right on the mark in terms of fulfilling our expectation, now I haven't seen that before. So I guess it's not as bleak as you make it out to be.
I just hope that in your cynicism you won't reply by arguing that both Morrowind and NWN are not that great really...
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 6:35 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
I just hope that in your cynicism you won't reply by arguing that both Morrowind and NWN are not that great really...
Heh... Do I strike you as someone who would argue like that?
Anyways, you people misunderstood what I was saying. I was predicting a flood of cheap clones that beat the same proven formula (ala. BG) over and over again to death. How fun will it be when you get 10 so called RPGs released at the same time and all will look/play like cheap rip-offs from NWN or BG? The first few you'll think were kindda ok, but the reality will sink in soon and you'll realize that this isn't progress.
BTW, I wouldn't call myself a cynic. I think of myself more as a realist. 
Besides, didn't Deus Ex and Torment come out in the same year?
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 7:18 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Besides, didn't Deus Ex and Torment come out in the same year?
Did they? In any case I was mentioning mostly highly anticipated and sought after RPG's coming out in the same year, and being both successful. But if DX and P:T came out the same year, then you'Re right, although Planescape was far from being successful, unfortunately. And both these games were pretty much unknown before they came out. Well, Planescape was at least as far as I know. Maybe some were anticipating DX, but it wasn't anywhere near the anticipation NWN and MW were getting in the past few years.
As for the diluting of the product, yes I agree with you on this. Sorry, I didn't understand it that way before. But still, I would rather have more choice and a few diamonds in the rough, then only a few titles that suck out of the box like the drought we had before BG came out. We just need to be selective and careful before we buy, as we always should.
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 8:47 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Agreed, but keep in mind the pitfall there, similar to what's happened to RTS- you get a banner year or two and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. There might be a few decent games in that bandwagon, but there's going to be a lot of garbage that will not sell well. Once the beancounters see poor sales, no more funds for RPG development because "that genre doesn't sell anymore- the players have moved on". For whatever reason, the financial guys don't seem capable of discerning poor sales genre-wide from poor sales of bandwagon garbage.
I'm not predicting the death of RPGs by any stretch. I'm noting that developers will have a much harder time getting money for a good game (especially a long-lead RPG title) if the publishers are losing their shirts by backing lots of bandwagon crap.
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 10:13 pm |
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Aeolus
Village Dweller
Joined: 31 May 2002
Posts: 19
Location: UK |
Already started happening with MMORPGs .
Uncountable numbers of online games in development right now, and 90% of them are just EQ clones (why not UO? Far better skill system).
But the bandwagon isn't such a bad thing. The FPS is/was having a "boom", and although they followed the same 'structure' , you got some good games out of it all.
Like B-movies and Arcades, RPG clones will just dissapear into the murky ocean of games. And even if you get a decent RPG one a blue moon, unless you only play RPGs you're not going to be short of games (GTA3/NWN/MW - too much cash for a student).
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Fri Jul 05, 2002 11:18 pm |
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Kendrik
Thin Blue Line
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 550
Location: England |
I think the resurgence in PnP roleplaying will have helped.
Wizards of the Coast (or They who own everything) have been busy releasing new editons of old games such as D&D (released as 3rd edition) and Star Wars (also 3rd eidion I think - may be 4th) but these systems are designed to be far more accesible to new gamers. Add into this the increase during the 90's of the Collectable Card Game (due to WotC again) and the whole roleplay scene suddenly came back into the spotlight again. It was only logical, then, for the computer games industry to try to cash in on this (shame Hollywood tried as well - I still weep for the D&D movie  )
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Sat Jul 06, 2002 1:27 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
And both these games were pretty much unknown before they came out. Well, Planescape was at least as far as I know. Maybe some were anticipating DX, but it wasn't anywhere near the anticipation NWN and MW were getting in the past few years.
Did you ever hear about Command & Conquer before it first came out? But you sure as hell did hear about Starcraft. Just as much as you did hear about NWN.
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Agreed, but keep in mind the pitfall there, similar to what's happened to RTS- you get a banner year or two and then everyone jumps on the bandwagon. There might be a few decent games in that bandwagon, but there's going to be a lot of garbage that will not sell well.
This is the exact pattern I'm alluding to.
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Once the beancounters see poor sales, no more funds for RPG development because "that genre doesn't sell anymore- the players have moved on". For whatever reason, the financial guys don't seem capable of discerning poor sales genre-wide from poor sales of bandwagon garbage.
I'm trying to not be as much of a doomsayer. I think once the bandwagon junk goes bankrupt, only those who have learnt their lessons well will survive. Quality will become more appreciated over quantity (and that is the phase we are entering now).
As far as death of RPGs... did RTSs die? Nope. There was just a bit of a lul there. And now Warcraft3 comes to take the throne again. I hope it does. I hope it's not just a cheap marketing rip-off. But time will show.
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Sat Jul 06, 2002 4:40 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Problem is that some good companies will get caught in the masher with the ones that deserve to be there. Sir-Tech with Wiz8? They went years without financing and eventually died. Without the sell-your-soul deal with Electronics Boutique, Wiz8 would never have seen light of day. That's because Wiz8 was in development before Baldur's Gate started the influx of cash for RPG developers.
When there's limited money, whether it's because of lots of garbage developers vying for funding or because the investors have pulled back from a genre as a whole, good companies making great games will suffer and possibly die.
Like I said earlier, I'm not predicting the death of RPGs at all, but I can foresee some "lean years" coming. We have a banner period (basically this year and the end of last year), followed by the bandwagon period (I'd guess 2003 and maybe 2004) where you get a few good ones surrounded by a bunch of crap, followed by a few lean years where there's not much of anything (remember the mid to late 90's?), and then there's that new breakthrough that starts the cycle all over again (DS, MW and NWN anyone?)
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sat Jul 06, 2002 6:46 pm |
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