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Hawthorne
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 25 Apr 2002
Posts: 124
Location: Michigan, USA |
| After giving the Game more consideration... |
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I wnat to expand on my comments...
There is a lot in Morrowind that could use improvement; maybe we can do some of it with the editor for later play after the game is finished. I have a scenario in mind that I think would be entertaining.
But I really hope that when the sequel comes out they will take some of the constructive criticism to hart.
The main plot in the game and the way it progresses is pretty dull, so far anyway.
I keep going out and exploring just because the quests are so dull.
I went in and explored every place in side the Ghost Wall last night. I assume that there will be more available there later in the game because I didn’t find anything really interesting, several mines and a couple of abandoned ruins up in the mountains.
I went through all of them and got a lot of loot.
My favorite example of plot development is “Summoner” a really good story line that moves along with challenging quests, some real surprises and plot twists, (who didn’t figure Morrowind out as soon as you heard about the prophesy.
As far a character AI, who could surpass Ultima Seven the Black Gate.
I still remember how blown away I was when I watched the Blacksmith make a sword.
He placed it in the fire, and then pumped the bellows. Next he picked it up with tongs and placed it on the anvil, after hammering away at it for a while he picked it up and quenched it in a barrel of water. And get this! After doing this for a while, he grabs a bucket and goes out doors to the well and gets more water to pour into the barrel to replace what has evaporated. And you could only see him doing this during working hours. In the evening you could fine him in the inn having his dinner, and later, at home in bed. And the real kicker is he wasn’t a major character and his actions had nothing to do with the quest.
Later the Ultima games went down hill, but even Ultima 9, a disaster as far as the 3D performance before the patch and faster computers had much better plot development then I have seen in Morrowind so far. Granted the game was much smaller.
Now to character animation, this is where most RPGs really go to pot, and Morrowind is better then some but not great. I think that Summoner was a lot better, but I have seen a lot worse then Morrowind. I’m only comparing real 3D games here, not top down games like Baldure’s Gate.
The best character animation in my opinion in any 3D game is in the Tomb Raider series. I would love to see a RPG that really allows you to control the character all the time in combat and exploring, I have a soft spot for Tomb Raider since my one claim to gaming fame is that I completed every TR Game except the last one without ever using an aid kit. This is because you’re strategy and skill controlling the character really determines how well you do, there is no leveling or fancy armor in Tomb Raider, you survive be getting the other guy first.
Last where are the puzzles and thing to figure out?
Why can I just go up to any door and walk in, no cryptic clues or hidden buttons, it’s too simple. Maybe I can do something with the editor.
Anyway I’m not flaming the game as far as the graphics and the world go it number one.
But there is room for improvement, maybe the next generation of Morrowind type games will do all this stuff.
Mike |
Sun Jun 16, 2002 6:01 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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| Re: After giving the Game more consideration... |
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One thing I've wondered about before is puzzles and such as RPG content. Is it really a role-playing game if you must rely on intelligence that your character doesn't have to solve a puzzle? For instance, should a none-too-smart warrior be able to solve all these difficult puzzles? Perhaps not. Instead, they should be able to pass them with muscles and such.
I really liked that point in Fallout 2 where if you had the necessary medical skill, you could figure out how to make implant armor. If you didn't have the skill, you couldn't figure it out. Of course, you didn't need the armor to win the game; you could get there in other ways without knowing that the armor even existed.
I suppose a pure RPG shouldn't rely on the players intelligence too directly, or it will force you to come out of character and play an adventure game. Maybe there should be a perception check or something that would let you use your character's intelligence (or some related stat) to solve these puzzles.
It's in interesting dilemma, at least to me. Party-based games don't have the same problem because there is usually at least one person in the party smart enough to solve the problem.
Garon |
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 8:16 pm |
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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
Hawthorne: I dont agree, but thats not what I want to say. The problem is that, while lots of folks most likely agree with you, lots of others dont. While all the things you mention could be inserted, lots of us (and the devs) believe it would make it 'un-elderscroll like'. So I doubt it will ever happen.
But on the bright side, there is the editor (as you said). And whats ever better (for you), is that if lots of people agree with you, lots of mods will come that slowly transform the game into what YOU want. Then I can play my perfect 'clean' MW, and you can play your perfect 'modded' MW.
Good luck, have fun, and all regards,
Mephisto |
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 8:53 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Mephisto, why would Morrowind cease being an Elderscrolls game, if certain flaws were removed and other mechanics improved?
I don't think a strong story would necessarily interfere with the intended open-ended feel of the game. Do quests have to be dull? Do all NPCs have to be overwhelmingly.. generic to make up an Elderscrolls world? The latter is why the Less Generic NPC project was born, and from what I've heard, it does only improve the game.
Meow...
Arhu |
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 9:07 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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Another thing they really need to add is a physics system. Let floating barrels be just that.. floating barrels. Not animated static objects. That's one of the big reasons why the world of Morrowind feels so shallow to me.
I don't think that's possible to add with the editor though.. Maybe Elder Scrolls 4? |
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Sun Jun 16, 2002 9:34 pm |
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Hawthorne
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 25 Apr 2002
Posts: 124
Location: Michigan, USA |
I know that everyone doesn’t want the same thing, but these are the things that I would like to see in a game, especially the ability to control your character with more precision and a good story.
I do think that there should be things to figure out and there are in most RPGs that I have played, not just go and get some thing and bring it back.
Even some of the little side quests in Summoner, like retrieving a doll that a child had dropped down a well involved finding a way into the sewer and discovering that the doll had been picked up by some of the denizens and stored in their hut. Then you had to fight your way through them to get it. Before that I was necessary to figure out how to open the gate to the part of the sewer that it was in. When I returned the doll and got my reward I felt I had done something.
I remember old RPGs where the thing you were sent to retrieve had a purpose, i.e. it was the only thing that could kill the monster at the end of the game. And the task of getting it was a real adventure involving searching for hidden dungeons, talking to NPCs and finding hidden rooms and passages in the labyrinths when you found them.
I seem to remember that Daggerfall had lots of hidden things, secret doors in the dungeons and such. Maybe I am wrong, it has been a long time since I played it.
But most of all I want an interesting and original plot, and interesting characters along the way.
Keep in mind that I haven't finished Morrowind yet, so maybe there is content that I haven't gotten to yet, but so far I haven't seen it.
In the mean time I have started working on the editor, not easy, but I’ll stick with it.
I created a character to live in the house I have taken over in Seyda Neen.
Not such a great Idea she whistles annoyingly calls my names and complains all the time. It’s almost like real life. I’m trying to get her to follow me some where else but no luck so far.
In the mean time I’m looking forward to the new Tomb Raider game in the fall, which is purported to have role playing elements added to it for a real break from the old TR games. I guess it was time I didn’t even replay the last TR game and I’m a fanatic.
Mike |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 1:12 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
Yeah, I agree, a physics engine and day/night cycle for npcs would definitely improve this game. It would also be cool if the npcs would react accordingly to certain events - like, if I was sneaking behind an npc and was caught it would be nice if they showed a little emotion - like being startled with appropriate facial and body movements for this reaction. Maybe they'd even get pissed off and attack...but as of now we would just hear "make it quick outlander" That's why the world of Morrowind just seems so bland.
Also, it would be awesome if when I entered a shop - say a alchemist's shop - I saw him/her mixing herbs or perhaps reading a local book on potions....maybe even stocking his shelves with fresh marshmerrow...and when noticing my presence, stop what he/she was doing and greet me with a hearty welcome (because even though merchants dislike outlanders I'd still think they'd want to make a profit, and treating you like crap and calling you an n'wah is not the way to go) ...but this isn't the case. Most npcs just stand there and mutter nonsense to themselves.
_________________
= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:09 am |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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This is off topic but I want to give an example of what a great phsyics system can add to a game.
I had just started in Gothic, gained a few levels and bought my first crude sword. Feeling all powerful and invincible I went out into the forest to bring back a few hides to sell. After walking for s short while I heard a growl to the left of me and I quickly turned to see what it was (I play with headsets so it really WAS to the left of me) and a wolf had snuck up on me. So I thought "Ok, a wolf is a dangerous opponent but he is alone. This will be a good and even fight". So I stand in fighting mode and slowly advance towards him. Then he starts to bark and 4 other wolves come rushing through the forest! I panic (like a little girl with my arms flailing above my head) and turn to escape but the first wolf is too quick and jumps up on my back so my only option is to shake him off and climb a boulder standing next to me. Up on the boulder I notice the wolves aren't very good climbers because they keep slipping off when trying to climb up to me. So I am safe for the moment and decide it's time to look through my inventory to see if I can find something useful to fight this pack with. I find a bow among my weapons and decide to try to use that. As I try to unequip the sword I accidentally drop it. That is when the physics system comes into work. As I drop my sword on the sloping boulder I can only helplessly watch it slowly slide down the boulder and land among the wolves on the ground below! In Morrowind it would have just stayed where I dropped it.
I loved that, even though I didn't survive. |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:14 pm |
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mammoth
Village Dweller
Joined: 16 Jun 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Somewhere in The Death Star |
hey this is a Morrowind Forum, write into the Gothic Forum, lol,,,,,=)
_________________
"May the force be with you"
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:28 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
But it's related to this topic, so it's appropriate.  |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 2:45 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Mattias Kreku
In Morrowind it would have just stayed where I dropped it.
Actually, in Morrowind it probably would have floated right through the rock to the ground underneath, like those cliff racers do.
Garon |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:10 pm |
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guest
Guest
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| Re: After giving the Game more consideration... |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hawthorne
The best character animation in my opinion in any 3D game is in the Tomb Raider series.
You haven't watched FAKK2 |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:15 pm |
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Midiboy
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 74
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If you are talking about barrels floating in the water, it is totally possible in the editor. My friend is making a mod that includes them.
_________________
Midiboy
Check out http://www.midiboy.com for info about Midiboy Music |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:25 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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| Re: After giving the Game more consideration... |
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quote:
Originally posted by guest
quote:
Originally posted by Hawthorne
The best character animation in my opinion in any 3D game is in the Tomb Raider series.
You haven't watched FAKK2
Which, however had terribly blocky models and some cheesy voiceacting. Yeah, a physics system would have been great. Just allowing to simply throw more stuff would have been great. Breakable objects would have been great. TES 4 would be great |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 4:41 pm |
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Hawthorne
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 25 Apr 2002
Posts: 124
Location: Michigan, USA |
I have played FAKK2 and the character control and the things the character can do are good but don't approach Tomb Raider in my estimation.
Lara can...
Run and jump.
Back flip
Hang and drop from heights.
Duck.
Crawl.
Do a twisting flip and land facing the other way, forward or backward.
Flip to the side.
Climb a variety of surfaces
Shimmy up a pole or rope.
Slide down a pole or rope.
Jump and grab a pole or rope.
Swing on and jump from a rope and grab the edge of a surface.
Jump across a gap and grab the ledge on the other side.
Dive into the water.
Do a quick underwater turn.
Shimmy along an edge and then around a corner of an object or surface.
Do a handstand.
Jump from a position hanging on a wall, do a twist and grab the wall on the other side.
Use binoculars and flashlights.
Climb on any object that she can jump up and grab the edge of.
Squeeze through low openings.
And on and on.
The animation when she jumps and lands etc is very good and fluid not the stiff sort of thing we have in Morrowind, she even drips when she climbs out of the water, her breath shows when it's cold and trails behind her when she runs.
The point is, it's this kind of detail in the character animation and control that makes the game; and I personally would like to see this kind of interaction with the character in a RPG style game. Think of the opportunities for exploring that this would open up.
This may not be important to everyone but it’s what I would like to see.
Mike |
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Mon Jun 17, 2002 10:26 pm |
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