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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Lets say we are all playing a pen and paper game and when it's my turn in combat the DM hands me a Rubix Cube instead of dice and says, "If you solve this in less than 3 minutes you hit the enemy, if not you miss."
Is that a role playing game? All I need to privide a character in a RPG is personality. My own strength, relflexes, looks, gender, sexual oreintation, running speed, clicking ability, income, Rubix Cube solving time, or cooking skill should have nothing what-so-ever to do with my character being able to hit an enemy in combat.
I am not making up facts. I really wish you guys would think about this for a second, I'm saying 2 + 2 is 4 and you guys are saying it doesn't have to be 4.
Of course you are making up facts. It's something the human race does very well 
Why does rolling a dice have anything to do with role-playing? It's just another way of implementing a random generator. Anything that creates a number in a certain range randomly will do. They are just a tool to introduce 'chance' in a game. Your chance to hit or miss is determined based on a random number. They have nothing to do with roleplaying.
Rubix Cube in this case is about skill and not randomness and as such can't be used I suppose.
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Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:00 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
I don't know which non-RPG's get's the credit to be a RPG without beeing one, but this is a specific CRPG forum (C = Computer), and not a RPG forum (P&P). Many have already accepted the fact that there are quite a few differences between CRPG's and RPG's, and the definition of each category also differs, when we talk about how much RPG or CRPG stuff a "game" contains.
RPG's strong side is the gamers freedom to try every insane idea he/she can come up with, and expect an answer from the game (DungeonMaster), CRPG's cannot. RPG's got a lot of paper, dices, money, Items and stuff to keep track on every thing, and it's each players own "burden?" to manage them. CRPG's takes care of that for you.
CRPG's can cover a lot more playground and dialogues in a shorter time than P&P's, not necessarily better, but much more.
IMHO a P&P game is about "roleplaying" a single character, and give him/her your personal attitude, and having the freedom to act any way you desire, and get a reaction back.
CRPG's is more about "leading" a (group/single) character(s), and hopefully survive all the way to the end, and try to manipulate the game (Better items, NPC info, Character building) in a way that this journey gets easier or at least playable as the resistance mostly gets tougher and tougher, the further you get into the game.
CRPG's can give you an immersive gameworld experience, P&P's leave it mostly to your own fantasy.
Both genres like good stories, P&P's has the best possibilties to manipulate/interrupt the main story, but still it's evenly important in both game types in my opinion.
The word "roleplaying" in CRPG's should be taken with a grain of truth, in the words actually meaning. CRPG's is just a genre that inheritated a lot of things from P&P's, but for now accepts the facts that not everything can be inheritated, but also that other facts can be enhanced from the P&P world.
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Thu Oct 30, 2003 12:24 pm |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
I think Roqua does have a point. Although I don't think it's strong enough to declare Gothic as a non-RPG style game.
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Thu Oct 30, 2003 9:53 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I'm still right, right? |
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 12:02 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
If this was a democracy, you were wrong, as the majority disagrees.
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Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:08 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
quote:
Originally posted by Jung
Gothic was a mixture of both stats and your own skill in timing the sword, which does not diminish the game's RPGness. If you take that away, all your left with is number crunching, which is deplored by many. It was a major mark against MW. You have this 1st person perspective and realistic enemies, but your character can only swipe at the air. That isn't realistic or satisfying. I would say that the point of combat in an RPG is more about preference, and the type of game setting than about being an RPG..
Realistic? Yeah, very realistic that an extremely skilled fighter has EVERY combat action controlled by some ordinary guy behind a keyboard. Why should I even pretend to be a fighter in that case? Your CHARACTER is supposed to know how to handle a sword, NOT you.
Stats are the most important part of an RPG since THEY define the character you play.
In that case, Dungeon Siege is the ultimate RPG. My characters are nothing but stats interacting in a virtual world, and they take care of themselves, which I shouldn't need to do. The stats will take care of it for me. Good that DS makes the player unnecessary--and before I used to think a lack of interaction makes a game boring. Not so!
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:22 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
In that case, Dungeon Siege is the ultimate RPG. My characters are nothing but stats interacting in a virtual world, and they take care of themselves, which I shouldn't need to do. The stats will take care of it for me. Good that DS makes the player unnecessary--and before I used to think a lack of interaction makes a game boring. Not so!
Ah, a skillfull move, however you forget about the whole 'personality control' I already mentioned.
Furthermore, DS is linear and without dialogue-choices and other variations, which cuts down on its RPG-ness. It's all in how well you can adopt the role you've chosen.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:50 pm |
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Rain-X
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 7
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No, thats too much of a click fest to be a RPG. What they need is one button to click attack then you sit back and watch them run throughout Dungeon Siege killing things right and left, now that my friends is an RPG!
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 4:55 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Namirrha
In that case, Dungeon Siege is the ultimate RPG. My characters are nothing but stats interacting in a virtual world, and they take care of themselves, which I shouldn't need to do. The stats will take care of it for me. Good that DS makes the player unnecessary--and before I used to think a lack of interaction makes a game boring. Not so!
heh heh, good point. Roqua seems to be arguing that a game is not an RPG if it requires some manual dexterity.
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 5:01 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
I knew it would come to this. I am going to have to use my 19 Charisma to convince Hexy and Roqua that Gothic is an RPG.
Persuade:You know, Gothic really is an RPG. . .
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 9:37 pm |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I'm still right, right?
Sure, in your own little universe. ;p
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Moderator of The Anime and Manga Fan Club |
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 10:31 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Let me add a thought. This discussion seems to be based on physical skills primarily, especially as regards Gothic, which is in many ways the epitome of an RPG. Please consider mental skills. I have fairly slow reaction speed, one of the reasons I detest click fest action games. I have a first class brain which I use for strategy and puzzle solving, etc. Am I not supposed to use my brain in an RPG, if my character is not as intelligent as I am? Does using that particular playing skill make a game something other than an RPG? I think NOT. Any game makes use of the players natural skills and abilities, both physical and mental. These then should not be incorporated into any definition of a games genre. A genre should be defined by characteristics that do not include the skills and abilities of any player. They should be an enhancement to that genre.
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Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:28 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I think a lot of people’s responses would be answered if the read all of the posts. Fallout covered metal skills as well as some other games. Remember the radscorp contest? Plenty of other examples I can think of also.
Why do people insist that I am talking about what makes a good RPG? I am not. I am talking about what makes an RPG. Good or bad doesn’t matter. I think Gothic is a better game than DS or Diablo 1 or 2. I think Diablo and DS are some of the worst RPG’s I’ve ever played. Gothic has some very strong RPG elements. But since my skills are more of a factor than the character’s skill whose role I am playing, it is not an RPG.
If it is a better way to do it, more exciting, and super fresh fly dope doesn’t matter. If it is the way of the future doesn’t matter. If you or I like it better doesn’t matter. Wishing hard and really, really wanting it to change doesn’t matter. All that matters is that the game is twitch based and cannot be considered a RPG because of that. This is my point, it is right, and I am right. I will not go into all the reasons why because I all ready did a bunch of times in previous posts. |
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Sat Nov 01, 2003 8:48 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
You're not right, sorry.
I ask again: by your definition no game with RT combat is an RPG, right?
As to the specific example of G2...
quote:
since my skills are more of a factor than the character’s skill whose role I am playing, it is not an RPG.
Again, this is your subjective opinion. It is clear to me that the most skilled "twitch" player on the planet cannot defeat a Black Troll in G2 with a 1st level character no matter how good they are. So, character skills do play an active role in G2.
In my opinion, I can see that the character skills are more important than my own, which are quite lousy. Certainly my skills don't improve as the game progresses, but yet my avatar is many, many times more powerful at the end of the game. If it's not my skills (which have remained static) that make the difference, it must be the characters skills.
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Sat Nov 01, 2003 11:30 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Again, this is your subjective opinion. It is clear to me that the most skilled "twitch" player on the planet cannot defeat a Black Troll in G2 with a 1st level character no matter how good they are. So, character skills do play an active role in G2.
In my opinion, I can see that the character skills are more important than my own, which are quite lousy. Certainly my skills don't improve as the game progresses, but yet my avatar is many, many times more powerful at the end of the game. If it's not my skills (which have remained static) that make the difference, it must be the characters skills.
Of course your own skills improve as you get more acostoumed to the game. And you'll be way better with your character at the end, knowing what tactics to use, or as in Gothic, what key-combos that work best, and you'll be faster and more fluent in fighting FOR your warrior.
You still disregard the fact that your own skills should play as little role as possible, if you're ACTUALLY going to play A ROLE in a REALISTIC way. You should CONTROL the character, as in general actions and personality-choices, NOT the characters actual skills. |
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Sat Nov 01, 2003 11:43 pm |
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