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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
Just came back from the Games Convention where only a few real RPG's were on display. I could easily count them on one hand and that is including 2 MMORPG's. But there were some hybrids where one genre was mixed with the RPG genre. After seeing some of those I was wondering about how many RPG elements should there be in a game to qualify it for monitoring by RPGDot. Or maybe a better question would be: What minimum set of RPG elements should be in a game?
To give you an example, the new Tomb Raider has 'some' RPG elements. So does project Nomads and Deus Ex 2 to name a couple.
So what do you think. What minimum set of requirements should we apply to a game that is said to have 'RPG elements'?
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 3:34 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
We've wrestled with the definition of what makes an RPG before. There's no definite answer, although we all seemed to accept a couple things-
1)character development of some kind
2)some type of storyline that the player can affect
As far as those "borderline types", I think a good test is whether the game can be experienced differently by making different choices. For example, Deus Ex 1 is a different game depending on whether you play as a sneak or a tank. My experience with the Tomb Raider series is terribly limited, but I don't think the game plays much differently regardless of what you do. A game that gets really tough to decide on is the Thief series. I've never played them so I'm working from hints and rumors, but I don't believe the player's choices radically affect the gameplay.
I do think we should acknowledge the two (as a minimum) sub-genres of RPG, though: the strong story type (a la Planescape and the Fallouts) and the hack-n-slash type (Diablo, DS, Deus Ex). Lots of us here (myself included) frown on the second type as being "less-than-RPG". I think (strictly opinion here) that RPGDot should cover hack-n-slash types that meet the "different replay criteria" because we have an audience here for that type of game. Besides, you draw in those h-n-s heathens in and us old-schoolers can show them the light of the one, true RPG. 
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 4:26 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
That seems reasonable. As far as Tomb Raider goes, only this last one is said to have RPG elements, none of the previous four did.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:05 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Monitoring rpg-shooters (Deus Ex), rpg-sqad-fighting (Jagged Alliance) and rpg-adventures(Red Guard) would be ok for me. I don't like mindless Hack'n'Slash (Dungeon Siege).
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 6:29 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
I would also say you should be consequent concerning different games of the same franchises. IMO a Tomb Raider needs hell of a lot of RPG elements to be covered here because the franchise is identified with the action-adventure genre. How do you want to communicate to your reader that only this year´s refresh is covered and the older parts are ignored?
Of course I would also have skipped Warcraft 3.
Cover the game if it has <i>strong</i> RPG elements, be it 'classic' or 'diablo clone'. Alibi RPG ingredients should be ignored.
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 9:43 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Well well, the next Tomb Raider (btw, the tech demo at the GC was pretty good  ) is said to have character development. I doubt that it will offer a lot of replayability though...
Then again, the Eidos people were pretty concerned about the game not appealing to the typical TR crowd (mainly because of the new - male - character who'll be introduced there). Should the game turn out to have more RPG elements than we thought it should be covered, but that's something we'll see after the release.
All in all I'm with HiddenX (or I'll lose the coverage of my favorite genres). I'm not against mindless bloodshed as long as it's not an ISO3D game , but I think it needn't be covered here.
@dteowner: The Thief games were mission-based and not exactly freestyle (gameplay-wise). You didn't have character evolution, either, so I'd never tagged them as RPGs. But both story and atmosphere were just plain terrific, so they're topping my all-time favorites list to this day.
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Jaz |
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 10:14 pm |
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Ral-Jiktar
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 16 Aug 2002
Posts: 49
Location: Ontario, Canada |
the first record of a RPG style game was back in the year 1200, thats near the renosance era (english Vs French). it was a pen and paper based RPG. It played similar to D&D.
an RPG is a role playing game. it was soposed to be played by taking on an other persobnality and playing that personalaty. Its like being a Actor that has created a character that only has A Name, Age, And BIO and from there acts like that caracter and makes him evolv untile he/she feels like he ha just created a living breathing world.
For any game to be clasified it must contain a type of evolution for the Character, he/she does not even need to become stronger nor weaker. but must grow and become more life like.
A real RPG is to learn your character and become him/her, you must learn your advantages and how to use them best, and you must learn your distavantages to know how to counter them. in other words every character ha ups and downs and as his/her creator it is up to you the actor to learn these and find a way to fix this in character.
Every so often some comunity makes a RPG festival where you come as a diferent Character that YOU created, or as some call a Avatar.
There you play games like Magic and dungon and dragons, every body is in digise and acts acordingly to there character. I hade taken a Paladin, and my skills where in killing Undead, but coping with those dicise as Orcs bacame hard as most my skills where wasted in magic and undead killing, So I got vested every time. I had to find a way to beat those Orcs taht have a good risitance to magic. but one thing came to my mind, I ad a very large shield skill I never use. and Orc barbariens have dificulties with Acuracy. So I used what little plastic coins I had and got a flashy plastic shield +3. I had a ability I never used and that i was going to throw away at my next level up, bu I dint, I found out that Barbariens have lots of HP but no AC so instead of of trying to get more HP I got what orcs dont have defence.
That was one special moment when my first Orc hit the ground and asked for merci (I did give him merci).
and that is what I belive RPGs are about. its not leveling up, or becoming the best one, but analizing a problem and reacting to it in your character.
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You may not alwais start the way you want, but the way you end is totaly up to you.
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www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/ral-jiktar |
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:17 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
In some games, however, you have no choice but to play in-character because you have absolutely no option to leave a prescripted track. Should they still be covered?
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Jaz |
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Mon Sep 02, 2002 11:26 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
This can be a very complex topic but I'm pretty happy with Dteowner's two points and his "test". I also agree with HiddenX' list, but I think products like DS still need to be covered. |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:48 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
@dteowner: The Thief games were mission-based and not exactly freestyle (gameplay-wise). You didn't have character evolution, either, so I'd never tagged them as RPGs. But both story and atmosphere were just plain terrific, so they're topping my all-time favorites list to this day.
Yeah, but didn't Thief 1 and Thief 2 make the "all-time favorite RPG" list Windwalking compiled recently? Several people (and I think you were one of them, for that matter) were willing to call them RPGs. That's why I mentioned them as "tough calls". Based on your description, I'd say "no" too, but others have disagreed and I don't have enough info to say they're wrong.
HiddenX touched on a sub-genre that probably deserves some consideration in addition to the two I've already put out there: the strategy/RPG hybrid. That would cover the JA series, the X-com series, and also the HoMM series. There's probably others out there that would fit into that group.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 1:58 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Of course the Thief games made the list. I had to re-edit my top ten list after I discovered that the games had been mentioned in other lists... since they are my absolute favorites ever. I never thought they were RPGs, however, but how could I have neglected my favorite games if others voted for them as well? 
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Jaz |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 5:53 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
1)character development of some kind
2)some type of storyline that the player can affect
As far as those "borderline types", I think a good test is whether the game can be experienced differently by making different choices. For example, Deus Ex 1 is a different game depending on whether you play as a sneak or a tank. My experience with the Tomb Raider series is terribly limited, but I don't think the game plays much differently regardless of what you do. A game that gets really tough to decide on is the Thief series. I've never played them so I'm working from hints and rumors, but I don't believe the player's choices radically affect the gameplay.
That's a decent test, but games like Final Fantasy II (USA) would not pass it. That game was pretty much linear all the way; you couldn't affect the storyline very much at all.
It is tough to make this distinction between "RPG" and "non-RPG"; I believe that it is merely a gradient for which some games fit better into RPG than others. Everyone has different qualities at defining the "ideal" RPG that would reside at one end of the spectrum, but here are the qualities I like:
1) Open-ended storyline (no CRPG completely fulfills this, so no CRPG is 100% RPG by my standards)
2) Physical character development (in terms of abilities, power, items, authority, etc.)
3) Social character development (status within societies, reputation, relationships a la BG2)
4) Open-ended quest resolution (Fallout is a good example of this; you could solve quests in many different ways... Thief also works here)
Note that by this system, Final Fantasy II and Diablo have about the same level of RPG-ness, and I don't really disagree. FFII focuses on story, and Diablo on combat, but in the end, how much of a "role" you play in determining the outcome is about the same in either game. A game like Fallout would be high on the RPG-ness scale, for it fulfills 3 of the 4 qualities pretty much spot on, with the exception being that it is not a truly open-ended main storyline. But in terms of CRPGs. Fallout is about as "RPG" as one can get.
A game like Thief has some level of RPG-ness (mainly in quality 4, but a little of 2 as well); it also fulfills the action genre really well, too, which is why I tend to think of it as an Action/RPG.
Gothic would be a RPG/Action, I guess
- Wind |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 8:38 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
That looks like something one could work with. But one question remains. How much does it have to fulfill those 4 points in order to be called and RPG?
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 9:50 am |
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mDrop
High Emperor
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 479
Location: Under the desk |
I think it should fulfill atleast two of Windwalking's points. Still, those points are not equal. A game with social development of the character and open-ended quests is maybe a bit more of an RPG than a game with physical development and open-ended quests, judging only by these points.
A true RPG should fulfill points 2-4, with point 1 as closely resembled as possible. Fallouts have pretty "open"-ended storylines, since a lot of your decisions are reflected in the end. Still, the freedom is not perfect.
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:25 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
essential for crpgs:
- quests, goals, tasks, assignments, your character/party have to do
- skills, characteristics, ranks, that can be improved
- items, weapons, armour,... to find, to buy or to get in quests
- a good story
- fun
nice to have:
- many different dialogue options
- non-linearity: different ways to solve problems, quests
- different classes/alignments to go through the game (evil <-> good, fighter <-> thief <-> mage, ...)
- multiple endings
- a reacting enviroment, Night/Day cycle, a npc-schedule (Gothic)
additional characteristics:
- turn based, real time, phased combat
- 1st person, iso-3d, ... (graphic engine)
- spell system
- buying/selling system
...
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 12:34 pm |
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