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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Side Quest: Playing <i>your</i> Role |
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This week’s Side Quest is an unfocused ramble on character creation and character limitations.
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<br>I am currently playing <i>Gothic II Gold</i> but wanting a change of pace the other day, I found myself eyeing the <i>Fallout</i> icon again. Science Guy and the Diplomat had done their rounds recently – time for the Lucky Sniper? In the end, I decided to check out the new <i>GODS: Lands of Infinity</i> demo to see what had changed…a very nice game from the demo that somehow reminds me a little of <i>Wiz8</i>...but I couldn’t help wonder why a turn-based “old-school” cRPG – a game that will best appeal to the cRPG faithful – has me stuck playing a fixed female-only emissary of the Gods? Character creation is one of the things that made me love the cRPG genre - I’ve toyed with dozens of <i>Fallout</i> creations, created copious spreadsheets for <i>Wizardry 8</i> and re-tooled teams in <i>The Temple of Elemental Evil</i> and many, many more. I must admit to not quite being a <b>pure</b> roleplayer – I do envisage and try to embrace a role but there’s just a little bit of meta-gamer in me, so sometimes there’s a bit of an internal struggle as I sway between pursuing the true character and maximising the build. And I even love that.
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<br>It’s hard to be empiric but in recent years, character creation seems to have taken a back seat. Strangely, the pursuit of a “great” story also seems to have made an impact. I have enjoyed many RPGs that didn’t have character creation – the <i>Gothic</i> series comes immediately to mind – and many games with restricted or limited character creation, such as <i>Kult/Heretic Kingdoms</i>, which had a simple scope and female-only character. Looking forward, there are games like <i>Gothic 3</i>, <i>The Witcher</i> and even the indie <i>GODS: Lands of Infinity</i> mentioned earlier that I am anticipating…in almost every case, however, I think the game would be improved with character creation.
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<br>The process serves multiple purposes that all benefit an RPG: allowing a player to imagine and fulfil a role (within the terms of the game), establishing a roleplaying framework, differentiating the early play and helping players strengthen the rapport with the character. While it doesn’t always bear out in the gameplay, I would suggest RPGs with character creation better <b>understand</b> why players are attracted to cRPGs.
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<br>I can think of several reasons why developers would forgo character creation: simplifying development, a “straight into the gameplay” philosophy, marketing/promotion and story reasons. It’s hard to argue about development resources but I’d still argue character creation should be a priority for an RPG. Getting players straight into the “action” is easily fixed by providing pre-made characters or some simple templates.
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<br>That brings us to story-based limitations. We’ve previously established that the story is very important to an RPG (<a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10077&newsid=41805" target="_blank">poll results</a>) but one of the key distinguishing elements of an RPG over other genres is allowing the player to assume different roles and (hopefully) impact the storyline. Surely character creation can only enhance this? Writing a story that requires a fixed character is prioritising the designer’s story over the gameplay and the interactive narrative created during the game. While that may be a valid design choice for many players, I can’t think of a game story that couldn’t be tweaked just a little to allow more character freedom. Let’s have a good story <b>and</b> character freedom.
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<br>As always, your comments are welcome. Do you love character creation or am I overlooking the benefits of developing the character from a blank template during the game itself? |
Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:32 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
While I much prefer creating a character from scratch, the alternatives can be just as enjoyable. Gothic where you fill in a blank slate is a good example. You create your character as you play within the limitations of the game setting. There are obviously arguments for both sides. Sometimes you need to play the game for awhile in order to choose skills that will suit your playing style. How many of us have created what we thought would be a great character, only to find it didn't play as well as we thought IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME!!
I'm not fond of games that present me with an already defined character who offers little scope for development. Games in the FF mould do not appeal at all. I don't want to be told that this character is a rogue and that one a mage. I want that choice to be MINE!!
Story vs character is another issue. For me, both are VERY important. Perhaps that why I still consider PS-T the best CRPG ever made. If I had to choose one over the other, I think I'd pick story, but it would be a close decision. The best games have plenty of both!! 
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:42 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
This is a great sideline. I anticipate no rpgs that don’t have character creation, since they aren’t rpgs, or no more of an rpg than any game.
Character creation can be the best part of the game (daggerfall). I remember getting a game, grabbing a note pad and manual, and taking a 3-hour crap while devising my party. Creating a party is half the fun. Min/maxing, creating back stories and personalities, etc., I love it all.
I just don’t care about characters I don’t create, or are not allowed to play as their personalities would dictate. I want choices at every facet of the game, from chargen, chardev, combat, interaction, and story
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:46 pm |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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Any chance you would consider giving examples for the other 3 like you did for Interactive creation?
I have not had my coffee yet and cant decide |
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Sat Feb 18, 2006 11:54 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Sure.
Blank character: Gothics, Deus Ex, VtM: Redemption (if I recall correctly...been a while)
Archtypes: Almost every hack'n'slash action/RPG: Diablo, Sacred...
Interactive: You can add several Ultimas
I'm missing some obvious examples, I'm sure, but you get the idea.
_________________
Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:36 am |
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Guest
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Not all of the final fantasy games fall into the fixed char type of game. If you ever played the earlier Final fantasy games you would know. Final Fantasy 5 is really good when it comes to character creation with it's job system which gives you a lot of combinations to create the class you want while you play the game.
PS. It's not as advanced as with pc games but it is much more advanced then most console rpgs. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:53 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
While I much prefer creating a character from scratch, the alternatives can be just as enjoyable. Gothic where you fill in a blank slate is a good example. You create your character as you play within the limitations of the game setting. There are obviously arguments for both sides. Sometimes you need to play the game for awhile in order to choose skills that will suit your playing style. How many of us have created what we thought would be a great character, only to find it didn't play as well as we thought IN THAT PARTICULAR GAME!!
I'm not fond of games that present me with an already defined character who offers little scope for development. Games in the FF mould do not appeal at all. I don't want to be told that this character is a rogue and that one a mage. I want that choice to be MINE!!
Story vs character is another issue. For me, both are VERY important. Perhaps that why I still consider PS-T the best CRPG ever made. If I had to choose one over the other, I think I'd pick story, but it would be a close decision. The best games have plenty of both!!
I'm suprised Corwin, Gothic could have added a lot more on the roleplaying side when it comes to character. Besides class, your personality is pretty fixed to what the devs wanted from you, giving you no chance at actually playing a role.
I am not knocking Gothic 1 or 2 as games, as they are great games, just poor rpgs IMO. But, on the other hand, a lot of rpgs could benefit from the non-character, non-combat aspects of the Gothics.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:09 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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We had an example of Interactive creation, the only one left now for an example is Full character creation. 
Would Fallout or NeverWinter Nights fall under, Full character creation, since you dont really have an predetermined idenity yet?
Last edited by Acleacius on Sun Feb 19, 2006 7:09 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:57 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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I don't like character stats in my video games. I like choices, particularly the choices afforded by deep simulations with large possibility spaces. (I don't care for the 'multiple paths' of story-driven games.) I play RPGs for the chance to explore and interact with a simulation of a living world. No other genre allows me to do that. But in order to experience their worlds, these games force me to 'play' a 'role', boxing me into a small subset of the choices available. And they make me take skills before I can try them and decide if they have any use, and before I have any idea of what lies ahead, so I may as well assign points by throwing darts at the character sheet. No, these days I only play other people's builds. Character creation vs building as you go? Feh, whatever. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:33 am |
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Shimbatha
Village Leader
Joined: 15 Feb 2002
Posts: 78
Location: Jersey Shore |
Did you guys ever play Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne on the PS2? I'm a diehard PC Gamer, but I really was shocked at how perfectly that game combined a "Fixed" starting character (To make the story easier to fit around you) yet made him completely blank...literally...and allowed the player to mold him throughout the game. Heck, he was made *blank* by the devil when he was "reborn" as a god among demons.
Not only did you have total control over the point distribution during his level ups, but you had 8 slots for skills, and there were in upwards of 100 different skills to discover...and you could make anything from a devoted healer to a powerful mage-type, or a brutish fighter. Or anything in between.
As for the topic of the poll, I don't really care much about a story. Sure, it's nice, but the real meat and potatoes of an RPG is found in its character creation. That's one of the reasons why I hated Morrowind but adored Daggerfall and Battlespire. I am one of those people that spend hours planning my character in advance, making notes on scrap paper about my feelings on each skill and spell, restarting if I feel I "messed him up" and so on.
Heh...my latest (Fourth) Wizardry 8 end game party was so tightly built that i went through hard mode without *anyone* dying a single time.
Powergaming is fun. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:42 am |
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Wulf
The Shepherd
Joined: 20 Sep 2003
Posts: 2312
Location: North/West.England |
Just a side-note about the appearance and creation of gothic hero.
If ever there was a game crying out not to have any purposeful character appearance creation, it was the gothic series and i am somewhat disappointed that it should ever be suggested as to overide the creators objective.
It was a most predominant and essential requirement from the very outset and creation of the gothic concept that each and every player throughout the world to play the 'same' and nameless character, this then releases the character which is within "yourself" to differ by your own interpretation of the storyline, the gothic series of games are *dialogue led* so as to create an 'as-you-go' progressive and most necessary "worthy" advancement and not appearance advancement so as to differ completely from each other gamer. Every gothic player's hero must appear the same when starting out to achieve this purpose! - - a level playing field, for those of us not fully conceptual of the gothic games it is quite hard to grasp this ideology.
Even most recently Kai Rozenkranz has stated "the hero will remain nameless" and be uniform to each gothic 3 player, because it is the developement through strong dialogue led paths contained the storyline that essentially creates the gothic hero, i personally respect and favour this method.
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Forever aches my wretched soul, for Chromanin locked in that dark hole, though crypted key i've yet to learn, he knows one day i will return. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 12:19 pm |
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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
Yet again I feel that the story is the most important aspect.
While I do enjoy character creation I'm a product of CRPGs, not P'n'P, so I guess I'm more predisposed to let the game in question "suggest" to me what specific role would be most advantageous to choose (be it a "typical" party configuration in Might & Magic, a completely different configuration for the Icewind Dale games or a blank slate in Gothic).
The point is that while CRPGs are trying to be perceived as roleplaying games they aren't and they probably never will be, at least not until a true AI has been invented, because in order to truly allow the player choices it is necessary with real time consequence calculation for every choice the player makes. Computer logic is purely a matter of True/False and every single "path" has to be preprogrammed by the developers no matter whether it is something simple like:
code:
if (playerCharacter == male)
servingWench.respond("Why hello there big boy")
else
servingWench.respond("What'll it be?")
or an action/inaction with far reaching consequences, which very quickly becomes VERY complex to adhere to.
Every time the developers make a choice on your behalf they take a potentially huge burden off their own shoulders. Let me give you a rather corny example: Imagine a kind of prequel to Baldur's Gate where the god Baal is out to find the mortal woman to impregnate with his seed that is to become the protagonist in the Baldur's Gate games ... and you are to play that woman. In order for that story to make any sense whatsoever you simply can NOT choose to play as a male character.
The real question is pretty much the same as last week's poll: Do you prefer story rich yet choice poor games or vice versa? Every choice the player is allowed will "simplify" the overall story in the game ... that is if the choices are to have any consequence (which is why most choices in CRPGs are rather superficial). And, likewise, every "tightening" of the story will remove/invalidate player choices (i.e. you HAVE to become a Jedi in Kotor).
Sure, it CAN be done to successfully combine rich story and meaningful choices but the amount of time and manpower necessary for this to happen is looking more and more unlikely in the ailing CRPG market of today (bugger  ).
Another side of the matter is that the character creation aspect is not REALLY that necessary unless we are talking about party based games. Gothic, Arx Fatalis, Sacred, Morrowind, Kult, etc are all based around one single playable character and in terms of impact on the gameplay is doesn't really matter whether you plan out your character progression before or during the playing of the game. Some games, like Gothic, even manage to incorporate the character progression into the overall story and this is, again, only possible by removing certain choices from the player.
In regards to the personality of the characters (as mentioned by Roqua) I can only think of a single game where it was possible, or more precisely where it was feasible, to make "choices" based on your personality (alignment actually but let's not mince words) and not feel like an idiot because you turned down exp/goodies in order to maintain your reputation as an evil bastard. In Kotor there actually IS a dark path to traverse whereas most other games leave very few, if any, possibilites to really play as an evil character and stay in character.
I've rambled on long enough don't you think? 
The bottom line is: Is it any less of a role playing game if you are GIVEN a role to play instead of CREATING a role? I don't think so and the former gives the developers a whole new deck of cards to play as they see fit.
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Signature? ... erm ... nope, can't think of one.
Last edited by fatBastard() on Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:48 pm |
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ikbenrichard
Guest
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well Dhruin, i totally agree with your story.
i must admit though there are exceptions were it does not bother me, the big exsample here is Gothic. but yes in overall i prefer a self made character over a premade. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 1:51 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I think we are all not even close to being on the same page when it comes to what playing a role means.
In role playing games, games where you create and play a role, this is how it works. You conceptualize a person, his personality, his strengths, his weaknesses, his flaws and advantages, how he reacts in certain situations, etc. Then you use the rules of the world to make this person happen. The person has a history, motivations, likes, dislikes, and acts different from others.
Jose Wales acts differently than Dirty Harry, and is motivated by different things. Han is different from Luke. If you or I were Darth Vader’s son the story would of went differently, as we are different than Luke and would not make the same choices, or would at least do it differently.
All rpgs are there to do the same thing, put someone or a group of someones in a situation and say, “What would you do?” When the question changes to a statement of, “This is what the character I created but you play does, and it works the same for the next guy playing, and the guy after him, etc.” it stops being a role playing game, and just becomes a game, like any other, no matter how many stats are involved, or if you can get to point A by sneaking through a vent, hacking a computer to open a side door, or blasting your way through.
As technology becomes more able to recreate a true role playing experience, “crpgs” move farther and farther away from having that as a goal.
Everyone can like what they like, and define things as they want them to be, as I can say I like cows a lot and label anything I like a cow, like my couch, or my car, or the toilet, but a cow is still a cow in reality, and my couch, car, and toilet are not cows.
I like crpgs, and I also like video games. I liked Arx Fatalis, a video game. And I liked Blade of Destiny, a crpg. I liked Gothic, the video game, and I liked Darklands, the crpg. I liked Orion, the video game, and I liked Fallout 2, the crpg.
Calling all video games crpgs is like calling all ocean life fish because they are in the ocean. So Wales are fish, lobsters are fish, alligators, are they fish? Is a tomato a fruit or a vegetable? Are yogurt, ice cream, sherbet, and sorbet the same? Is a chair and a couch the same thing? Things, throughout history, have been grouped into categories that make sense, and having nothing to do with likes and dislikes, tastes and preferences. It has to do with grouping correctly and sensibly. That’s how it is, and no amount of wishing or liking will change it. My liking cows gives no validity to labeling couches, cars, and toilets as cows.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 2:28 pm |
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Kolorabi
Guest
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Clearly you don't have to create a role to play it. Ofcourse Planescape: Torment is a role playing game, even though you don't create the nameless one. Same with Kult, Gothic, et.c. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 3:45 pm |
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