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deaddog333
Village Dweller
Joined: 02 Nov 2003
Posts: 1
Location: Anaheim,CA |
My oppinion, which matters to me, is that RPG's have to require thinking power. I've read some of the responses to this debate and am perplexed by some of the answers. In regards to an RPG just meaning that you take on the role of someone else is preposterous. If that was the case, then DOOM could be called an RPG, or any other FPS for that matter. In some cases they have. ie. Dues EX |
Sun Nov 02, 2003 12:55 am |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by deaddog333
My oppinion, which matters to me, is that RPG's have to require thinking power. I've read some of the responses to this debate and am perplexed by some of the answers. In regards to an RPG just meaning that you take on the role of someone else is preposterous. If that was the case, then DOOM could be called an RPG, or any other FPS for that matter. In some cases they have. ie. Dues EX
That is not what was said, however, playing a role is the essental characteristic of an RPG. In a way, DOOM is a kind of roleplaying, but since you don't really have control of any aspect of a character except movement and shooting, it isn't a very good one.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:42 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
You're not right, sorry.
I ask again: by your definition no game with RT combat is an RPG, right?
No, I never said that. I do like TB better than RT. But that is another topic. RT does not mean my reflexes have an impact on combat in general (in Lionheart and some other games if I didn't click on the enemy my character would sit there getting beat to death). |
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Sun Nov 02, 2003 4:53 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I have to disagree too, Roqua. Yes - a RPG should define interaction with the world through the character's abilities but to say that introducing an action element to a game disqualifies it from being classified as a RPG regardless of it's other elements is too limiting.
By this definition it is impossible to include any game with real time combat as a RPG, right? In every RT game, the player's control of the avatar affects combat in some way or another. Whilst I personally enjoy turn-based, RT games have a place for those that enjoy them (and there are good ones).
You're implicitly saying that a game that has complex character creation, where the character's skills have a visible effect on the gameworld, non-linear gameplay with multiple solutions depending on the character's skills and deep interactivity but has RT combat is less RPG than a linear, non-interactive, combat-fest as long as it's turn-based. That just doesn't make sense.
Unfortunately (or fortunately?) it's very hard to define a RPG and I feel that any definition should balance a range of features.
In every game the players control of the character has an impact on combat. Hexy said exactly what I was getting at when he said (I'm paraphrasing) "The character is supposed to be the one who knows how and when to swing the sword in an RPG, not me."
My tactics and decisions have a huge impact on combat in ToEE, same as in IWD, BG, and every every RPG, as well as every game. If my tactics in Gothic where to jump on top of the Raptors to kill them I don't think that would work. But when I decide my character should fight the raptors head on I can not rely on my characters skill to do this--I have to be more confident in my own skill in manipulating the keyboard corectly. |
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Sun Nov 02, 2003 5:12 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Of course your own skills improve as you get more acostoumed to the game. And you'll be way better with your character at the end, knowing what tactics to use, or as in Gothic, what key-combos that work best, and you'll be faster and more fluent in fighting FOR your warrior.
You still disregard the fact that your own skills should play as little role as possible, if you're ACTUALLY going to play A ROLE in a REALISTIC way. You should CONTROL the character, as in general actions and personality-choices, NOT the characters actual skills.
My personal skills don't improve ten-fold (or whatever it is by the end of the game). Even if my skills improve 100%, the character's skills are still having a much bigger impact.
I'm not disregarding anything. If there was an article entitled 'how to write the perfect RPG' by Dhruin, it would have TB combat where the player's skills had as little impact as possible. But games where the player's skill has some impact should not necessarily be ruled out as being an RPG altogether. I'll accept something like 'less pure RPG' but not that they have to be called an action-adventure or whatever Roqua proposes to call Gothic.
Perhaps we should recall what Roqua wrote when starting this thread.
quote:
Games can have "RPG" elements, but that doesn't make them RPGs. My reflexes, aim, and ability to push a button at the correct time should have no effect on me playing an RPG at all---Zero Effect. Effect null. None at all. Zip.
That's crystal clear: not 'as little as possible'. It's 'Zero Effect. Zip'.
Actually, that not really consistent with Roqua's words a little later:
quote:
But since my skills are more of a factor than the character’s skill whose role I am playing, it is not an RPG.
See, I would agree that a game that uses the player's skills more than the character's is not really an RPG (although we would disagree that Gothic is one of them). But that's not the point of this thread. We're talking about RPGs requiring zero. Zip. Nada.
quote:
RT does not mean my reflexes have an impact on combat in general (in Lionheart and some other games if I didn't click on the enemy my character would sit there getting beat to death).
Getting beat to death doesn't count as having an impact on combat?
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Sun Nov 02, 2003 8:18 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
It's odd, I think, that we find more consensus on what an RPG isn't than what it is, because subjective tastes vary so much. I can't say what it is exactly, but I know when I play one. And really, I don't care to put a label on what an RPG is or isn't, because ultimately, I'm looking for good games, whether they're RPGs or action games, 1st person, 3rd person, solo characters or multicharacter parties, real time or turn based, stat heav or stat light, story heavy or story light. The term RPG gives me a vague idea of what a game might be like. Not much more descriptive than calling a book a historical novel. Asking what an RPG is is about as important as asking what the meaning of life is. Either the answer is too expansive for a single, simple definition and it is a combination of many, or it is not there and we waste time looking for it. In either case, how valid is the initial question?
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Sun Nov 02, 2003 9:20 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Telling someone what to do isnt roleplaying. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 5:14 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
So if I am so wrong, we are right back to square one. What is the only universal factor in every game that can be considered an RPG?
The answer is the ability to talk to NPC’s that you have already talked to over and over if you can reach them. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 3:56 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Roqua, I think you are concentrating on details, and not the big picture. Currently, a CRPG gives you a story framework through which you can progress with some degree of freedom. The degrees of freedom are usually combat style, dialog choices, party/character setup, side quests, movement through the world. In the end, you end up in the same place, despite the route you took to get there: the one or two endings that are set up for you. RPG, as defined by computer games, means freedom to move through a story in multiple ways. The details of how devices like combat and dialog are implimented is not crucial to being an RPG, although it is agreed that a game needs to have these devices to be considered an RPG.
If these games were true RPGs, you would be able to write your own story, not follow a preset one, but that is beyond current technology. Morrowind attempted to create a world in which you could do your own thing, but couldn't provide the payoff to doing so.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 4:46 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
If that is the case then Black&white is the king of RPGs. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:51 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
If that is the case then Black&white is the king of RPGs.
I didn't play that game. Please explain what you mean by that.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 8:58 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
You are a god in charge of a village and can play either good or evil or any combanation in between. You get a creature you raise and train to be any way you like.
If you recieve a quest to help a drowning man you can have your creature save him and then eat him. Or maybe fling his poo at the drowning man and laugh.
The choices you make have a huge impact on the game world, visually and mechanically.
Combat is twitch based (between creatures).
It has the most open game play I have ever seen in a game. |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:07 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Hey, don't give up the good fight, Roqua - I was enjoying the discussion! 
There isn't a single criteria for an CRPG. If you were to ask 'what is the one thing every RPG has without fail', I guess it would be character development - but that's hardly an adequate description (actually that's where a lot of game do claim credit - any strategy game with units that advance claim RPG elements).
I think you need to look at the whole of the game's features and it's focus with the sort of elements desribed in Michael C's thread in mind.
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:15 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Sounds like it has some elements of RPG, but you didn't mention a story that would tie everything together or much opportunity for dialog. That kind of game is usually catergorized as world-building or simulation. As Druin said, it kind of depends on the overall features and focus, not a few game details.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Mon Nov 03, 2003 9:50 pm |
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Northchild
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 232
Location: New York, USA |
I think that RPGs can best be defined by looking at state changes.
To do this, you, as the player, must be allowed to visit one or more game locations with the same character that you started with more than once between the opening and closing credits of a game.
If you can't visit the same game location more than once, it's a puzzle game. Ex: Pac-Man, Tetris, Ridge Racer, Doom.
When visiting the same game location more than once in a game, if your on-screen persona(s) and their permanent abilities are the same while the game location has changed, then it's an action game. Ex: Silent Hill.
When visiting the same game location more than once in a game, if the game location remains essentially the same, but your character is permanently faster/better/etc...
OR if your character ALSO remains essentially the same, it's an adventure game. Ex: Final Fantasy Series, Syberia.
If the game location and character have both changed, it's a role playing game. Ex: Zelda, Deus Ex, Castlevania SOTN.
Feel free to poke holes in my theory, or re-write it/provide examples for and against it. I'm too sleepy to really examine it very closely right now. 
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 3:56 am |
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