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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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I just got done playing Gothic and absolutely LOVED it.
I’ve been a CRPG fan for many years. First with the old AD&D gold box editions way back in the day up to Baldurs Gate I & II, Pool of Radiance II, Neverwinter Nights, Icewind Dale, Arcanum, some of the Might and Magic games, and the entire Fallout line just to mention a few.
From the second I started playing Gothic to the end, I couldn’t stop playing it. I loved every bit of it. I don’t think I have ever been that rapped up and enthralled with a game as I was with that one. That includes Half-Life.
Now that I’ve beat it I’m looking for another game like it. Obviously Gothic II comes to mind. But I’m thinking about Morrowind too. It’s much more available then Gothic II and seems to be much more popular (mods, web pages dedicated to it, support…)
How does Morrowind stack up to Gothic? I’m referring more to game style then I am to interface. I.E. exploring, question, combat, things like that…
If I’m looking for a Gothic like game that will pull me in from the word, “Go,” then what game should I be thinking of. Not just Morrowind but any other game…
If I’m looking for a Gothic like game that will pull me in from the word, “Go,” then what game should I be thinking of. Not just Morrowind but any other game…
What I really liked about Gothic was its character development. I liked how combat had just as much to do with strategy and how good you where with a keyboard as it did with how good your character was. I liked how you where a pee-on and had to quest just to find a suit of armor or a weapon. I liked how levels and experience was acquired just as much by running errands as it was killing things.
How does Morrowind or even Wizardry 8 compare in these regards? |
Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:26 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
The most like Gothic wouldn't be Morrowind I don't think. Arx fatalis might be more similar. Dues Ex might be more similar. But both of them are alot more linear. Morrowind will give you some challenging battles in the beggining but if you built your character correctly soon you will not be very challenged.
Wizardry 8 has some very challenging combat (at times) but also has very slow combat and alot of it. But you said you played POR 2 so you might not mind slow combat and alot of it. Wizardry 8 is a great game but the amount and speed of combat slowed me down after a while. Morrowind is only fun for me in the beggining levels (for me).
But remember that this is just my opinion and definitly not the popular opinion. I played all the games you played and loved and hated some. I only made it to chapter 3 of Gothic so obviosly our tastes are a little diferent.
But I really think if you liked Gothic and are looking for a game like it I would say Arx Fatalis. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:53 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I haven't played Gothic yet, so I can't answer your question directly. I can give some guidance about Wiz8, though. One of my all-time favorites. If you enjoyed the Might & Magic series (particularly MM7), you'll enjoy Wiz8 a great deal. The combat is similar; character development is similar; quest structure is similar; overall gameplay is very similar. I'm pretty sure Wiz8 has been re-issued for $20, which makes it a huge deal if the game sounds interesting.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:16 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
I played Gothic before MW, and was disapointed when I switched MW.
Problems with MW compared to Gothic
-The dialog system and NPCS are awful in MW
-The world is large, but not as realistic in terms of terrain
-You character physical movement and combat is very simplistic
-I didn't find the main plot very involving, and I couldn't find the will to complete it...maybe it gets better at the end
-world and characters don't realy react to you
-Monsters don't have any AI that I could detect
-annoying performance problems
But there are a lot of things to do in MW, and you may find it fun for many hours, even though it is ultimately unsatisfying.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:31 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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If your looking for an rpg that requires some skill or thinking to win combat, then morrowind is definately not for you as the combat is very simplistic. However, it does have tons of stats and a huge gameworld.
Gothic and morrowind are very very different. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:09 pm |
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gdgrimm
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
If your looking for an rpg that requires some skill or thinking to win combat, then morrowind is definately not for you as the combat is very simplistic. However, it does have tons of stats and a huge gameworld.
Gothic and morrowind are very very different.
Well, I do agree that Gothic and Morrowind are very different.
But if you're implying that Gothic's combat requires any more skill or thinking than Morrowind's, I'd have to disagree with you on that (unless you wait until you build an uber character).
Gothic's melee combat required nothing more than swing left, swing right, swing left, swing right. That's really no different than the melee combat in Morrowind.
Gothic's ranged combat involved nothing more than bows and arrows. Morrowind's has that, plus throwing knives and shurikens.
I don't recall Gothic's magic combat being anything more than throwing (or dodging) fireballs and such. In Morrowind my magic combat has included that, plus lot's of spells to beef up and protect you from melee and/or magic, plus conjuration.
Did Gothic even have a stealth in combat component? All I remember my thief character using stealth for was sneaking into huts. In Morrowind, you can use sneak and magic fairly effectively to take out opponents that barely know you're there.
I'd say the biggest difference between Gothic and Morrowind, as far as combat goes, is the way you improve your character's ability.
In Gothic, the only way to improve is to do battle. And the better you are, the harder your opponent has to be for it to do you any good in further improvement. So the game forces you to fight tough battles to get any better. You're never going to get good enough to take on the Sleeper by killing nothing but mole rats.
In Morrowind, you can improve skills just as quickly by fighting simple battles (or no battles) as you can by fighting tough battles. The game doesn't make you fight tough battles. You can choose to fight them, or choose to fight easier battles until you're good enough to make the tougher opponents easy battles, and so on, and so on. You can build a character strong enough to take out Dagoth Ur by killing nothing but cliff racers. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 12:34 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Well, you could use the swing left and right tactic but i don't, I use block dodge and all the features that are meant to be used in the combat system.
While in morrowind, you cannot influence the outcome of the combat no matter how skilled you are, you basically just clikc and click, you can't dodge, you cant block ( well you can but it's not volountary). Another thing that makes gothic's melee much deeper is the fact that when you improve your skills, you can see that your main character changes his type of swing. Another thing is that the 2 types of melee weapons actually make you change your fighting style ( 1 handed is much faster and has different swings from 2 handed ). In morrowind, your fighting style remains the same even if you use daggers or spears.
The ranged combat in morrowind and gothic are equaly simplistic. even though you could aim with bows, it doesnt make a difference where you aim it so it's basically the same.
The magic combat is more complex in gothic IMO. YOu have to choose wether you want to summon and which spell is right for certain enemies. And since the AI in morrowind is so bad, choosing different spells barely makes a difference. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:24 am |
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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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WOW!!! You guys are awesome. That’s just the kind of impute I was hoping fore.
The only Might and Magic game I plaid was 6, The Mandate of Heaven. I really liked it at first but there where some things that caused my like in it to drop off sharply.
1. I dint like how big the world was. I never thought it was possible but the world was TOO big.
2. There was to little direction as to what I was suppose to do.
3. I didn’t like the re-spawning creatures. That sucked major bad.
What I did like:
1. The depth of play.
2. NPC interaction.
3. The world in general. IE, going form one town to another, meeting new people and new things.
Basically I would have really latched on to it if:
1. The world hadn’t been so over-dauntingly large
2. There would have been a little more guidance as to what I was to do.
How was/is 7 and 8?
I will have to look into Wizardry 8. That might be very promising.
I tried a demo of Rune. Not impressed. VERY shallow. But it did have an addicting nature to it. But too much Diablo style mindless hacking.
Keep the ideas coming. You guys kick ars. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 6:24 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Pico
1. I dint like how big the world was. I never thought it was possible but the world was TOO big.
2. There was to little direction as to what I was suppose to do.
3. I didn’t like the re-spawning creatures. That sucked major bad.
What I did like:
1. The depth of play.
2. NPC interaction.
3. The world in general. IE, going form one town to another, meeting new people and new things.
Basically I would have really latched on to it if:
1. The world hadn’t been so over-dauntingly large
2. There would have been a little more guidance as to what I was to do.
From those points i'm pretty sure you won't be enjoying Morrowind. The nearer choice for your taste, and as already been suggested, will be Arx Fatalis. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 3:44 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
Yeah, I play Morrowind because of the huge world and lack of direction. If you don't like that kind of game, you'll have to look elsewhere.
_________________
Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:21 pm |
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gdgrimm
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
Well, you could use the swing left and right tactic but i don't, I use block dodge and all the features that are meant to be used in the combat system.
Well, if you use the full combat system in Morrowind, things get much more complex, too. There are three types of swings (thrust, slash, chop), the amount of damage a weapon does changes with each type of swing, the amount of time it takes to perform each type of swing is different(i.e. you can thrust a weapon more quickly than you can chop with it), different weapons work best with different types of swings (i.e. daggers work best when thrusting, axes work best when chopping, long swords work best when slashing, etc., etc.), and you always have the three types of attacks available.
In Gothic, every one-handed weapon is handled in precisely the same way. And you really have only two swing options - stop the attack progression by not clicking, or continue it by clicking - i.e. before you can get to the third "special" swing, you first have to swing left, then swing right.
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
While in morrowind, you cannot influence the outcome of the combat no matter how skilled you are, you basically just clikc and click, you can't dodge,
Hmmm.... I don't recall any dodge in Gothic, other than the obvious step out of the way (which you can do in Morrowind, too). And in Morrowind, you get the choice of increasing your characters speed (which makes stepping out of the way easier), or increasing your characters endurance (gets him more hit points, so stepping out of the way isn't so important), or increasing either/both temporarily using magic. I don't recall increasing dexterity in Gothic as having any effect on character's speed at all, nor do I recall any way to improve the number of hit points your character gets when levelling up.
Morrowind has an inherent dodge that you can improve by improving your character's agility (either permanently through level ups or temporarily through magic), and a magical "dodge" called Sanctuary. It also makes sneak in combat useful, as well as certain magic spells like Chameleon, Invisibility, and Blind. I don't recall Gothic's sneak as being useful at all in battle, and use of 'subtle' magic didn't exist.[/quote]
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
you cant block ( well you can but it's not volountary).
The effectiveness of Morrowind's block IS voluntarily (though not real time) controlled and can be improved by improving your character's agility and block skill. The block skill, in turn, is going to be heavily affected by the type of character (Mages won't have any block skill at all, unless you really work hard at it, while Knights will quickly improve it). Also, you have the magical block spells, like Shield.
Gothic has a real-time controlled block, but that's all. Pretty simplistic, IMHO. You can't improve it, and it doesn't make any difference what type of character you're role playing.
And let's not even get started on armor, which is horribly simplistic in Gothic compared to Morrowind (which is still more simplistic than it should be).
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
Another thing that makes gothic's melee much deeper is the fact that when you improve your skills, you can see that your main character changes his type of swing. Another thing is that the 2 types of melee weapons actually make you change your fighting style ( 1 handed is much faster and has different swings from 2 handed ). In morrowind, your fighting style remains the same even if you use daggers or spears.
IIRC, in Gothic (the first one at least, I haven't played Gothic 2), the only animation change that occured was when you went from no training to Lvl 1. Lvl 2 training just earned you that special 'fourth click' attack. So it has two types of animation for the swing left, swing right attack. Morrowind has three types of animation (one for each type of swing), and the animations get faster depending on your character's speed.
And, as mentioned above, your fighting style in Morrowind is heavily affected by the weapon you use, as well as how you've developed your character.
BTW, daggers and spears are both best used when thrusting, though spears have a longer range. So you're fighting tactics should be a little different (use the spear to keep the opponent out of range, but use your speed or acrobatics to jump in with the dagger and then get back out), though not nearly as different as when you compare daggers to battle axes.
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
The ranged combat in morrowind and gothic are equaly simplistic. even though you could aim with bows, it doesnt make a difference where you aim it so it's basically the same.
Yup. Morrowind does have enchanged ammo, so you can choose to use fire arrows against Frost Atronachs and frost arrows against Fire Atronachs and such, but no biggie.
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
The magic combat is more complex in gothic IMO. YOu have to choose wether you want to summon and which spell is right for certain enemies.
Man, I have to totally disagree with you there. Morrowind does summons, and your choice of spell is probably more important in Morrowind than in Gothic. Both have the obvious ones, like don't use frost/ice on a Frost/Ice Atronach/Golem. Morrowind's gets a little more complex when you realize that dude all covered in armor might be a Dunmer (resistant to fire) or a Nord (immune to frost). Hhhhmmmmmm.... Well, he's wearing fur based armor, so I'm guessing it's a Nord.
And as mentioned earlier, there's a whole realm of defensive and stealth magics that are useful in Morrowind combat, while I don't recall using anything in Gothic but destruction spells (almost always fire) and then eating things to regain health.
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
And since the AI in morrowind is so bad, choosing different spells barely makes a difference.
The AI in both games is bad. If you're in a tough battle though, the choices will be important, regardless of which game you play -- it's that the choices are quite a bit wider in Morrowind. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:42 pm |
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gdgrimm
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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Pico,
I second (or third  ) Remus' advice. You're probably best staying away from Morrowind (Daggerfall would be an even worse choice).
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
quote:
Originally posted by Pico
1. I dint like how big the world was. I never thought it was possible but the world was TOO big.
2. There was to little direction as to what I was suppose to do.
3. I didn’t like the re-spawning creatures. That sucked major bad.
What I did like:
1. The depth of play.
2. NPC interaction.
3. The world in general. IE, going form one town to another, meeting new people and new things.
Basically I would have really latched on to it if:
1. The world hadn’t been so over-dauntingly large
2. There would have been a little more guidance as to what I was to do.
From those points i'm pretty sure you won't be enjoying Morrowind. The nearer choice for your taste, and as already been suggested, will be Arx Fatalis.
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 5:57 pm |
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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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I may have had a better time handling the world, but what REALLY made me want to quit is the re-spawning army. That was just way to frustrating. I would hack my way through them, go explore and talk to people and visit new towns and when I would came back through to get to a previously visited town I would have to hack my way through the same army. I hated that. At least The re-spawns in Gothic where awesome. They never where the same twice and gave you the feeling new creatures had wondered in to the area.
Anyway.
What of Dark Age of Camelot. Anyone play that one? |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 7:34 pm |
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Strogannov
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 48
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Its funny how a rather small german game (with often worse graphics) is such a big opponent to morrowind
anyway
i think arx fatalis would be better suited for you
i hated the arx fatalis demo actually (claustrophobic, dark and empty)
but if you want a sense of direction arx fatalis would be good
gothic 2 was fun but the lack of towns was a bit of a bugger (only one real town) whereas i like to be able to move from town to town in morrowind
go to the different tavern along the way and such
but morrowind seriously lacks character interaction (npc's are identical, the smith will aimlessly stand around at an anvil staring at a wall...)
unlike gothic (1&2) where the smith would make his weapons, the barkeep would serve his beverages, the priest quote his holy book and the townfolk actually walking around, going to bed or to the tavern (or whorehouse)
but a lot of mod-makers in the morrowind community are working on more npc interaction and animations (even that npc's will visually go into their house... which up until now wasn't the case)
as for those who say they weren't compelled to complete the morrowind main quest
i urge you to give it a go
be sure to read the documents you get, its a long read at times but it gives so much depth to the world.
the main quest in morrowind was, at times, more exciting than that of gothic 2
don't know why, morrowind just had this actual "myth-in-progress" feel to it
anyway, arx fatalis |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 8:37 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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To come back to the original post, if you liked Gothic, Gothic II is a must for you (I heard the english version is easily available at internet retailers, so it shouldnt be that hard to get). It has all that made Gothic great, plus better graphics and an expansion pack to boot.
Arx fatalis (which I am currently playing) is a nice game, but even more linear, to the point where the quests remind me of old-school adventure games - I often felt at a loss what I was supposed to do next, or how I was supposed to KNOW what to do next. Gothic is a much more polished game, and I miss the outdoors in Arx.
Morrowind is my all time favorite game - but if you dont like big worlds and free-form exploration it might not be for you - still, if you can get it cheap it might be worth a try. |
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Thu Sep 11, 2003 9:07 pm |
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