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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
| Why do developers refuse to implement gore into their games? |
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I just read the unabridged interview with the devs of ToEE, and a particular line caught my attention
quote:
<[Troika]Steve> [...] I'm not certain how many [death animations] the artists have animated. Most are reasonably gory, but nothing over the top like in Fallout.
I wander why they wouldn't want to create some really spectacular and gory animations. It certainly would add to a fun factor, and if some people are easily offended  or are minors  , they (or their parents) could disable certain gore elements (or even password protect them in a case with parents).
And the way Steve made his comment sound suggests that they (devs) would actually be ashamed of being any similar to Fallout when it comes to gore level  There wasn't anything over the top in Fallout, the virtual life was simulated after the real one - if you get shot you bleed, if you get shot in the head your brain flies out, and the blood is red, not green, etc.
Isn't it paradoxal that while game devs prefer (or are forced) to make their games less and less gory, modern kids have easy access to all sorts of adult material over the internet and curse in chats like drunk sailors during the multiplayer game matches? |
Fri May 02, 2003 5:40 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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1) Some designers (eg Sid Meier) feel that excessive gore do not add anything to the game, but mostly
2) it's not the designers fault. Excessive gore can easily lead to the Mature rating being assigned to the game. And as someone recently wrote in another forum, "the dreaded 'ESRB M' is to corporate suits what garlic is to vampires." |
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Fri May 02, 2003 8:03 pm |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
Many titles that sold quite well received M rating (e.g. GTA III/WC, Max Pain, etc.) I don't have solid facts on my hands, but isn't that the type of games most young kids play these days?
And isn't hardcore RPG genre aimed at a more mature audience? Because, if developers think that their potential players aren't mature enough to see some cartoonish gore, they should also dumb down the game story and reduce the complexity of the dialogs to make them more comprehensible by people of younger ages. That's why we have so many action "RPGs"  , and that's not the direction where RPG genre should be heading, IMHO. |
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Sat May 03, 2003 4:35 am |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
Many titles that sold quite well received M rating (e.g. GTA III/WC, Max Pain, etc.) I don't have solid facts on my hands, but isn't that the type of games most young kids play these days?
Gory titles that sell well are the exception, not the rule. The average player has something around 25 years; they're not kids.
quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
And isn't hardcore RPG genre aimed at a more mature audience? Because, if developers think that their potential players aren't mature enough to see some cartoonish gore, they should also dumb down the game story and reduce the complexity of the dialogs to make them more comprehensible by people of younger ages.
They dumb down the story to make it appealing to casual gamers, be they kids or not.
quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
That's why we have so many action "RPGs"
No, we have so many action RPGs because they sell well and are easier to design and write.
quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
and that's not the direction where RPG genre should be heading, IMHO.
I agree, but there is hope.
_________________
"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Sat May 03, 2003 1:42 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
I do not like too much gore in games. There are certain games where is level of gore to high for me, and it is one of reasons why RPGs are my favourite type of games. There is not too much gore animations, not too much gore detials...
For example Soldiers of Fortune 2 was too realistic for me.
But this is ofcourse just my personal point of view. |
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Sat May 03, 2003 2:03 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
I do not like too much gore in games. There are certain games where is level of gore to high for me, and it is one of reasons why RPGs are my favourite type of games. There is not too much gore animations, not too much gore detials...
For example Soldiers of Fortune 2 was too realistic for me.
But this is ofcourse just my personal point of view.
SOF2 was way over the top! Exaggerated blood and limbs flying all over the place. I don't like this kind of gore either. I only like gore in a game if it has a purpose.
_________________
"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Sat May 03, 2003 6:35 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
The gore WAS the only purpose of SOF II (and of SOF for that matter). As an arcade-ish shooter without a memorable story the game would never have been this popular without the gore. It served to satisfy the small market of gore fetishists (like me). I understand the decision of devs not to include gore (or at least to do a 'hidden' implementation) because of the possible result of an M rating, or worse, the game being blacklisted. In Germany many games are blacklisted ('indexed') for violence... meaning they may be sold to adults, under the counter only, plus the games in question can't be advertised. No advertising is the death of sales, and the German games market is one of the bigger games markets.
_________________
Jaz |
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Sat May 03, 2003 6:46 pm |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
Oh, I got your point - suits would not give a game that doesn't fall under THEIR definition of moralistic a chance for existence. But it doesn't explain why there shouldn't be appearing "hacks" on the Net, created by "fans" (read "devs"  ), that would allow users to enable all sorts of hidden options and settings that didn't make it through the publisher's censorship department. I am absolutely positive that no suit, even if he/she really wanted to, could find secret gore animations hidden deep within the game code. And then, when a hack surfaces in the Internet, that enables those animations, there would be no way to find out by whom that hack or the animations were created.
By the way, does anyone remember when in order to publish Fallout in UK or in Germany, Interplay was forced to make children in the game invisible, so that players wouldn't be able to kill them, and thus drawing some quests impossible to complete? I think this is really over the top.
P.S. Don't get me wrong, I'm not some sort of gore fetishist  I'm just against some politician or a corporate executive fat rich arse to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to see. I hope that Lieberman's stance against gore in computer games won't increase his chance of winning the next presidential election. |
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Sat May 03, 2003 8:07 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Surely gore is pretty low on the list of priorities. I like senseless violence, but it should be secondary to more important design goals. |
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Sun May 04, 2003 12:41 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
I like Gore and violence in video game, just as i like a good story, good atmosphere, or good user interface in game, although the priority can be less. The important thing is for developer to implement them properly, depend on what kind of gaming experience they want to deliver: an arcade, or realism/simulation, etc. Certain game like shoot-'em-up such as Serious Sam, we could have blood gushing everywhere and you just laugh at it; or the use of blood in horror/survival action or adventure game to emphasize the realistic atmosphere/horrific occurence.
So, Gore & violence do add to atmosphere, emphasize certain gameplay mood - as long as developer know how use them properly.
And no, i don't think the violence SOF2 is that exaggerated, it's more to the realism of violence. Flying arm, head exploding, or victim screaming while holding their stomach to prevent the intestine from flowing out do happen if you use heavy weapons like shotgun. Take a look at pictures of who became the victims of violence in certain newspapers, magazines, or on the internet.
The case of GTA III been heavily criticized, is likely due to it own popularity and well-known. It's said that beyong 10 millions copy have been sold, and that in the context of video game industry is like money raining from sky for the game developer. It's phenomenal. Even now after considerable time been in market, GTA III is still selling well compare to other new titles. Max Payne sold beyond 3 millions copy, easily surpassing a big & successfull RPG titles like Morrowind + Tribunal (PC + XbOX) - which sold beyond one million copies. Why they been so successfull?: because action genre appeal to casual gamer (biggest market), and when added with suitable themes like in GTA series; hot cars, hot chicks, hot music (MP3, selectable radio stations), tons of action, gangster - it's no wonder that teenager (13-19) and tweenty-something, or thirty-something (they make huge section of overall market) bought and played the game. Plus, They are popular not (or solely) because of its exploit of sex and violence. It's also because they are good and balance in term of gameplay, sound, graphics, entertaining, and thus always became a classics among gamers (GTA, Max payne, DooM series, Half Life, Duke Nukem, etc).
Lieberman? ESRB? Lieberman can scream all he wants about moral apocalypse and the collapse of social decency, but i believe Lieberman is more on attacking the symptoms of social illness instead of treating the root of the symptoms. Also, it's not only video game that contain violence, TV or film industry contain far more violence. Yet in one lower court case in US, a judge said a film can have more violence because of it artistry consideration (or whatever, i can't remember), and a film somehow can have more right of free expression than video game!. In reality, who haven't read or aware of violence or the sex stuff when they are in very young age? With high literacy rate & the wealth of infomations in modern society, the "mature content" may as well come from daily newspapers, books or magazines that you read, from "suggestive advertisements" in media, from your friends in schools, from your neighbourhood, the list could be endless. The whole sex & violence thing also heavily effected by the institution of family. Long time ago when i am in high school, we (with my friends) always have some verbal tussle with a particular female student in same class. Unbelievably, she always sucessfully spat back and stunned us with various detail curses and hardcore obscenities that we never heard of. During that time video game (whether PC or consoles) haven't even wide spread yet among young people.
At end of the day, whether it's bad or not, i guess the sex and violence in video games is going to stay, unless our government decided to adopt some kind of religious or moral fundamentalism in society. Recently, i saw a new game, BloodRayne (already released for consoles, very soon for PC). Certainly, your character is the typical girls in video game by male dominated game industry for male dominated game market - a nice looking redhead, busty, voluptuous. She is half-vampire, and in fighting she can suck her opponent's blood to replenishing her life. When sucking blood, you can hear the slurping noise and satisfying sound from her. She has the attitudes too - can taunt her enemies, saying the "F" word, even flipping her finger when successfully kill a tough monster. Ocassionally, she will licking a victim's blood from her finger or long blade after a killing fest or massacre. There will be a lot of blood, spraying onto floor or wall, and in slow motion mode you even can see how she Kung-Fu kicking and dismembering her opponents. I bet Lieberman will have a field day IF this game as successful/famous as GTA 3. |
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Sun May 04, 2003 8:18 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by NeverDark
But it doesn't explain why there shouldn't be appearing "hacks" on the Net, created by "fans" (read "devs" ), that would allow users to enable all sorts of hidden options and settings that didn't make it through the publisher's censorship department
...but there are.
_________________
Jaz |
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Sun May 04, 2003 9:37 am |
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hwfanatic
Average Fanatic
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 2850
Location: Belgrade, Serbia |
How do you define too much gore?
I think that any game, regardless of genre, should have realistic amount of gore. I wonder why that is a problem? |
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Mon May 12, 2003 1:25 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
HWFanatiC,
When I am killing people (animals, beasts) in games, I do not want to see everything I would see in real world. I do not want to see realistic bowels. I do not play games to be in other real world. I do not want too realistic gore, I do not want too much gore. |
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Mon May 12, 2003 5:41 pm |
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Lanael
City Guard
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 147
Location: lyon - France |
My definition of "too much gore" :
Amount of blood or severed members not tolerated by some @#$£*%
hypocrites conservators , in a particular time. Or simply by people who don't like it !
The cool thing is when player have the choice.
I'm angry not because I think there's not enough gore, but because of censorship ( and the auto-cencorship which constraints game dev. ).
But it's another debate ( too much violence at TV ? This is why children commit crimes or suicide themselves ??? Parents are not concerned ? ) |
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Mon May 12, 2003 5:59 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
'Too much gore' IMO would be gore just for the sake of gore. If a game had no other saving grace but the amount of gore displayed, it would sport too much gore.
Not that I didn't like it, but I'm not your average audience.
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Jaz |
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Mon May 12, 2003 8:17 pm |
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