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| Bush vs Kerry: who is your choice? |
| Bush (US-citizen) |
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21% |
[ 10 ] |
| Kerry (US-citizen) |
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19% |
[ 9 ] |
| Bush (non-US) |
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10% |
[ 5 ] |
| Kerry (non-US) |
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47% |
[ 22 ] |
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| Total Votes : 46 |
Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Chekote, understanding your question lies in answering this question, Why would a state of 10 million people agree to join with a state of 20 million people without force. Being a 33% minority gives you the ability to pass ABSOLUTELY NO LAWS.
States with smaller populations would not have agreed to join the US unless they had some degree of protection of their ability to live by the laws they wanted to. Still, in order to have a democratic unified country, you have to elect a central government.
When the United States was formed it was not really one unified nation, it was a union of states. Get it, United States, union of states. The idea that the US was a nation of people, not a union of states was not advanced until our Civil War in the 1800's. The electoral college was designed as a compromise to get the smaller states to come into the Union by giving them a disproportionate share of the say in electing the President, the only office decided by the entire union, while at the same time allowing them to make and live by their own laws.
It would also help your understanding to know that there is a line in our Constitution that says that any power not expressly governed by federal law is under the dominion of the states. There is an ongoing debate about whether certain issues should be decided by states or the federal government.
P.S.
Remember that the US is the oldest democracy in the world. The oldest that I am aware of anyway. It is difficult to count votes now, in the year 2004. It would have been unfeasible to count several million votes in the year 1800, a time when hand counting would have been necessary.
The European Union will probably be forced to adopt a similar system if they ever wish to become a unified nation. In order for a true unification to take place there will have to be some way to ensure citizens of smaller nations that their way of life won't be completely trampled by the larger nations.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Wed Nov 03, 2004 5:57 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
Well that definately explains it better.
You would think that should have been a temporary fix though. But I guess people still consider their state as a seperate entity. Which is pretty sad when you think about it...
_________________
IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:12 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
I couldnt agree more Chekote!
the system of the electoral college is not democratic and technology allows you to let the whole country vote as one state so why this system?!
_________________
If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:21 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Remember that the US is the oldest democracy in the world. The oldest that I am aware of anyway. It is difficult to count votes now, in the year 2004. It would have been unfeasible to count several million votes in the year 1800, a time when hand counting would have been necessary.
The US is not a democracy. It is a republic/borderline plutocracy. The electoral system is a step toward centralized (controlled) democracy, and not real democracy. |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:26 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Perhaps it is sad, but I don't think about it that way. I think of it as instilling compromise into mainstream life, which is really the only way any nation can hope to have a peaceful existence.
Besides, America is not a nation in the sense that Japan, China and Russia are nations. The word 'nation' implies similar bloodlines and culture. America is anything but a nation of similar bloodlines and cultures.
To you other guys, what IS a democracy in your opinion?
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 6:28 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
The popular vote. Nothing else. No overrides. No exceptions.
If you win by 1 vote, then you win. Simple as that.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 7:04 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Chekote
Well that definately explains it better.
You would think that should have been a temporary fix though. But I guess people still consider their state as a seperate entity. Which is pretty sad when you think about it...
Not really. The states each retain a fair amount of difference. Just check out the margin of victory in each state in the last election, 30 of the 51 voting districts had a margin of victory (ie favored one candidate over the other) by 10%. 41 had a margin of victory of 5% or more.
Just a quick test of the hypothisis that each state has its own flavor.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 8:10 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
But why does it have to be looked at like that? Instead of looking at a percentage of Republican/Democrat split on a state by state basis, why not just measure the USA as a whole?
Thats what I mean about it being a fake democracy. The country has been divided up in such a way that it can change what a vote actualy means.
In a popular vote only system there would not be such a problem.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Nov 03, 2004 9:45 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Chekote: You may find this and this useful.
I rather like the second one's conclusion about the fact that the electorial college forces candidates "to care as much about what people in Vermont and Arkansas think as what the people in New York and California think. It causes them to care as much about poor rural areas as wealthy urban areas."
Besides, it's extremely rare for the electorial college to not come to the same conclusion as the popular vote. It's only happened twice in U.S. history. That's a small price to pay for the benefits it gives.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Thu Nov 04, 2004 1:03 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Thank god it's finally over. No more interuptions in what's really important: Watching Law and Order and CSI. 
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:43 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
Chekote, I guess you live in Europe too. Well when we went for the European elections we voted for our seperated nations too. We didn't vote for a French person in Belgium neither for another country except Belgium. In the EU each country has a certain number of representatives. This is not only based on population, but also on economical, geographical and historical impact. So in your opinion the EU is even further of a real democracy.
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Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
member of the Sports Fans Forum
Leader's Right Hand at the Gothic Rogues
NFG member |
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Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:10 pm |
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MtnDwarf
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 36
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The electoral collage was put in place over a hyper democracy for a specific reason and has served that reason completely. If it was just about the popular vote if you were running for office you would base all your campaining in areas with the most population IE cities and thus try to apease those living in cities more so than those in rural areas. By having the system of the electoral collage put in place it protects those that live in less populated areas of the country aspecially when traveling from place to place wasnt as easy. So yes the electoral collage might not be a true democracy it is a republic but a republic has proven to be a very successfull system considering that the united states is the wealthiest nation on earth. The results prove it.
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"It is impossible to better oneself without knowing ones weaknesses" |
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Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:08 am |
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MtnDwarf
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 May 2002
Posts: 36
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BLEH! I know my spelling is bad, I dont really have the patience to go about checking my spelling on a forum.
_________________
"It is impossible to better oneself without knowing ones weaknesses" |
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Sat Nov 06, 2004 4:15 am |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
quote:
Originally posted by MtnDwarf
So yes the electoral collage might not be a true democracy it is a republic but a republic has proven to be a very successfull system considering that the united states is the wealthiest nation on earth. The results prove it.
That explains why you have such a 'good' social security system, why the most 'gunaccidents' happen in the USA, why the USA has a very rich small top and a very poor large (compared with the number at the top) bottom of people.
Pretty soon China will take the lead of the economica superpower and military. What will the USA be then? (open question that doesn't need to be answered.)
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member of the Sports Fans Forum
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Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:43 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
 I think I'm starting to agree with dteowner.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:12 pm |
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