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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Is everybody of you on broadband, so he can download Gimp or Paintshop Pro if necessary, depending on the map standards we agree on?
The quest chapter as I see it should include the following data:
(This is work in progress and of course subject to discussion. Everybody can voice his opinion.)
- quest name
- who / where ?
- when ? (optional; only in case of time limit or required special event, etc.)
- hint(s) ==> just a push or two in the right direction
- solution or multiple solutions (plus (dis)advantages of the alternatives)
- screenshot(s) if necessary (switch, trap, etc.)
- map if necessary
All infos should be short and precise. I think we can assume the reader plays the game with open eyes and doesnīt need to be told every single step.
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Sun Oct 19, 2003 3:45 pm |
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Toaster
Bread Alert
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 5475
Location: Sweden |
OK. I can contribute with some common quests, merc/DH quests, and some mage quests (only to ch. 3). But we need to organize it well so two people don't write a solution for the same quest, but that's obvious.
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Sun Oct 19, 2003 8:04 pm |
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Oancea
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
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Unless JoWood and/or Piranha Bytes mind it, I suggest that you should use only their maps, namely City of Khorinis, Land Map of Khorinis, Map of the Valley of Mines. There does not seem to be a real need for a map in the Sixth Chapter, since the route is rather one-way, and most action is taking place underground.
Not all quests have been given a name inside the quest log, so you'll have to come up with your own. An example is retrieving Lehmar's ledger. There are three peple who will thank you for returning the book and you can squeeze experience out of every single one of them, if you do it in the right order. None of this is listed inside the quest log.
The `who/where' part of the quest might need more nuancing. This is probably what the quest is about (you could use the text in the quest log if the quest is listed there).
Also, it seems necessary that there should be an `Applies to' section within every quest which would include the following:
1. Whose apprentice
2. Thieve's Guild Member?
3. Guild
An `Applies to' section should probably be listed with some of the solutions to a particular quest as well, since some quests can be given to all guild members, but solutions may vary according to what guild you're in. For example, when Fajeth asks you to kill the snappers roaming around the camp, only as a Mercenary can you ask him for gold (100 gold pieces) in return.
As you can see from this previous example, the quest can actually be taking place during the conversation and not just after. Another example is when you talk to Nagur and he offers you a third of the profits, whereas you can squeeze 50%. You can of course accept just a third and the quest goes on as usual. This means that assistance should be offered either in the `Hints' or `Solutions' section of every quest over what you say and not just what you do. In some place you may completely miss a quest if you don't say exactly the right lines (for example when you go talk to Hanna and she asks for your help in retrieving her old map from the map maker in the harbor district).
It's a good idea that with every solution for a quest you should list the experience you get in return and even gold or other items you are being given as a reward.
On another note, there are a bunch of other stuff which don't count as quests, such as the location of important plants (which you did mention before) and how to get to learn the right potion formula either as Constantino's apprentice or not. Where should this go to, what chapter will this be part of? That is if you agree that a quest is a quest as long as it gives you experience and should be listed inside the quest chapter, whereas all this extra alchemy stuff is part of another chapter. |
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 9:58 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Oancea
I suggest that you should use only their maps, namely City of Khorinis, Land Map of Khorinis, Map of the Valley of Mines.
Thatīs not enough. Maps for Onarīs farm and the monastery donīt exist. But itīs true, the number of different maps will be small. Only the marks on them will differ. The real problem is that it will look incosistent if one marks with blue circles and the other with pink triangles. 
quote:
Not all quests have been given a name inside the quest log.
Weīll have to see where we place them. Just assign an obvious name and describe them. Most of them donīt require more than two sentences as a solution.
quote:
The `who/where' part of the quest might need more nuancing. This is probably what the quest is about (you could use the text in the quest log if the quest is listed there).
Why should we repeat whatīs written in the quest log. I think we can assume the player knows his quest log.
quote:
Also, it seems necessary that there should be an `Applies to' section within every quest ...
Most of the quests are open for everybody. So it would be uneconomic to declare the opposite the standard. Limitations have to be mentioned under point 2 or 3.
:Fajet example:
Interesting question. Should these details be mentioned at all? After talking to everybody (to spawn the snapper leader) and killing the snappers the player will come back and talk to Fajet. Then he will _see_ he has more than one dialog option. Does it make sense to spoil it? I see 3 options: (1) tell him everything, (2) leave it out, (3) tell him to save before the dialog.
This is meant to be a guide, not a 100% complete walkthrough. The idea is that the player can look in it for a minute and get all the infos he needs to solve a quest.
Interesting topic. The key question is 'Should we mention things the player will inevitably find out himself?'
:Nagur and Hanna examples:
This is even more extreme. Should we mention dialog options? Isnīt a hint at the quicksave button enough?
quote:
It's a good idea that with every solution for a quest you should list the experience you get in return and even gold or other items you are being given as a reward.
This is a good idea, but we would be required to play the game again and write it down. Not sure if itīs worth the effort.
:potions, etc.:
These are completely different chapters.
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:06 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Short update:
I have an Excel list with ~150 quests and tasks. Theyīre enumerated and sorted by game time. Should be good enough to organize the work and find the assigned quests quickly.
Note that the quest names are not verified. Everybody has to compare the exact spelling to the quest log.
Any ideas how we should assign the quests? We are 7 people. I could send everybody the list and let each of you choose blocks of 5 quests, on a first come, first serve basis.
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 2:16 pm |
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Oancea
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
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I'll happily volunteer to handle all magician's specific quests. That is quests which only a magician will ever receive, and not any of the other guild members. There's plenty of those, I know. Give me that list and I'll mark them for you in Excel so you can tell which one's mine.
But first... are there any deadlines? |
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 3:56 pm |
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Toaster
Bread Alert
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 5475
Location: Sweden |
I can do some common and merc quests. Will you upload that Excel list anywhere so we can see it?
BTW, it would be a very good idea if you posted an example of how a good quest solution should look like.
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 5:57 pm |
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Oancea
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
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| A personal quest solution example |
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I'm one of the guys who would like to help with this project. Here is an example of how I would see a good quest solution. I tried to keep it as short as possible, as per Gorath's specifications.
A Great Challenge
Chapter 1, when looking for a job in town
Harad the smith in Khorinis wants you to bring down an orc and let him have the orc's weapon. In return he will vouch for your being fit as an apprentice in Khorinis.
Hint
If bringing down an Orc sounds too great a challenge, try finding an orc's weapon lying about or buying it off another fighter.
Solution (If the hint still didn't help)
There are at least three ways you can get an orc's weapon:
- Buy it off Cipher
Go to Onar's farm and ask Cipher to show you his goods. He's selling a Light Orc Axe for 10 gold pieces. Lares, the guy standing face to the sea in the harbor district can help you to get there.
- Find it in a Cave
There's a Light Orc Axe lying on the ground inside the cave to the left outside the East Gate of Khorinis. Take care of the monsters first.
- Kill the Orc Scout
An Orc Scout is not far outside the South Gate of Khorinis, and he is carrying a Light Orc Axe. You can get help against the Orc Scout by learning how to skin an animal from Bospher and going hunting together with Bartok.
Note: Harad will only accept a `Light Orc Axe' for an orc's weapon, he will not accept an Orc Elite's Sword (Orcish War Sword).
Last edited by Oancea on Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:38 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
You two should have received the list by now. Please send them back asap, so that I can move on with the assignments.
Here is an example:
A Brazen Thief
Hint: Track down the thief.
Solution:
Jora suspects Rengaru has stolen his money. Rengaru can be found close-by. Follow him when he runs away.
You have to decide if you want to turn him in to Lord Hagen:
(a)Report him to Lord Hagen and claim the head money.
(b)Let him go without or without the money and tell him you wonīt report him to Lord Hagen.
Solution (a) forfeits a possible thieves guild membership.
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 10:51 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Oancea,
this looks good. A few remarks:
"Chapter 1, when looking for a job in town"
I think you should include this info with every quest. We can remove it later if the quests are grouped appropriately.
"Harad the smith in Khorinis wants you to bring down an orc and let him have the orc's weapon. In return he will vouch for your being fit as an apprentice in Khorinis."
I think he only said you should bring him a weapon. This only implies to kill an Orc.
Maybe youīre right, we should briefly repeat the quest, to help the reader identify it.
"Buy it off Cipher
Go to Onar's farm and ask Cipher to show you his goods. He's selling a Light Orc Axe for 10 gold pieces. Lares, the guy standing face to the sea in the harbor district can help you to get there. "
1. The first sentence is superfluous. 'show me your goods' is standard procedure during trading. We can assume the player knows this.
I would start with 'Cypher on Onarīs farm is selling a .... '
2. I would mention Lares is an old friend from G1. This makes it more personal (and prepares Laresī bigger part in the add-on ).
"Find it in a Cave
There's a Light Orc Axe lying on the ground inside the cave to the left outside the East Gate of Khorinis. Take care of the monsters first. "
Seems incorrect to me. As far as I remember the axe is near the entrance of the cave. With 2 or 3 bandits inside the player should grab the axe and avoid confrontation.
"Kill the Orc Scout
You can get help against the Orc Scout by learning how to skin an animal from Bospher and going hunting together with Bartok."
1. I think you can always hunt with Bartok if you have the money. ?!?
2. You can (and should) do this together with Bosperīs quest. A clear reference should be done. (a link inside the document)
"Note: Harad will only accept a `Light Orc Axe' for an orc's weapon, he will not accept an Orc Elite's Sword (Orcish War Sword)."
I would integrate this into the solution part. Then you can leave out the 'Light Orc Axe' part later on if you want.
Alternatives:
I think we should list alternatives as
(a)
(b)
(c)
while steps which must be done in a certain order should be listed
(1)
(2)
(3).
This makes reference easier, from inside the quest and from other quests.
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Mon Oct 20, 2003 11:49 pm |
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Oancea
Village Dweller
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Posts: 21
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quote:
I think he only said you should bring him a weapon. This only implies to kill an Orc.
He indeed says: `Bring me an Orc's Weapon.' I explicitely made it `kill an orc' because that is obviously what he wants you to do. The authors made it `bring' and not `kill' in order to suggest that you do not have to kill an orc in order to bring him one, but it's quite clear that Harad wouldn't think that much of you if you told him you bought it off an old junkie friend of yours, namely Cipher. You should feel like a yellow-belly if you buy the weapon and don't kill the orc yourself, at least that's how I'd feel.
quote:
...Take care of the monsters first. "
Seems incorrect to me. As far as I remember the axe is near the entrance of the cave. With 2 or 3 bandits inside the player should grab the axe and avoid confrontation.
There are a couple of giant rats and maybe some goblins before you make it to the cave. I did say monsters. It's really difficult to think of something very condensed and yet rich in content. If you agree on including extra information like `Lares is an old pal from Gothic I', then more freedom in detailing a solution should be granted. For example, I could have suggested that they kill the Orc Scout by luring him towards the Shadowbeast that sleeps around there (I tried this on more than one occasion and it worked as expected).
Basically, are we to keep solutions brief in content or in form? In other words, shall we stick to the main solutions, or describe every possible solution, still trying to keep the number of words to a minimum? This strategy is again dictated by you.
quote:
1. I think you can always hunt with Bartok if you have the money. ?!?
2. You can (and should) do this together with Bosperīs quest. A clear reference should be done. (a link inside the document)
No, you cannot hunt with him unless you know something about hunting. I haven't checked with other skills, but knowing how to skin definitely worked (maybe you could learn how to remove teeth for all Bartok cares, but I admit I haven't tried).
As for `references', do you assume we write the documents directly in PDF, or are you going to assemble the references later on when all the book content is done? For all I know, I have only used LaTeX in order to generate PDF documents, I don't buy licenses for a PDF writer. If you would like, I could write my quest solutions inside my own PDF and you could try to disassemble it inside your own tool.
quote:
"Note: Harad will only accept a `Light Orc Axe' for an orc's weapon, he will not accept an Orc Elite's Sword (Orcish War Sword)."
I would integrate this into the solution part. Then you can leave out the 'Light Orc Axe' part later on if you want.
Definitely agree, I thought of starting my solution with this piece of info, but I wasn't certain about the suitability of the format.
quote:
Alternatives:
I think we should list alternatives as
(a)
(b)
(c)
while steps which must be done in a certain order should be listed
(1)
(2)
(3).
Anything which is step-wise can't miss. Maybe it could be the other way around, though:
1.
2.
3.
Because you would try to use letters for subsections and numbers for sections. In bigger sections, you would use roman numbering (I, II, III, IV, V etc.). But that's not very important, as long as there's ONE standard. |
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Tue Oct 21, 2003 12:59 am |
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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
i missed alot in here (how you must do it and stuff.) but i voluntere (sp?) to do some non-guild, merc/dragonhunter quests.
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Tue Oct 21, 2003 5:57 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Mercenary, Neo_Genesis, Toaster and Oancea:
Iīve mailed each of you yesterday but thereīs only one reply so far.
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Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:05 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Oancea
He indeed says: `Bring me an Orc's Weapon.'
So youīre manipulating your reader?
Itīs only a minor thing we can leave it like that.
quote:
There are a couple of giant rats and maybe some goblins before you make it to the cave. I did say monsters. It's really difficult to think of something very condensed and yet rich in content.
If I read that I would think you expect me to kill all monsters inside the cave.
I would leave the monster part out because itīs obvious there are monsters in the wilderness. Just warn to be careful inside the cave.
quote:
If you agree on including extra information like `Lares is an old pal from Gothic I', then more freedom in detailing a solution should be granted.
Maybe youīre right. We leave this stuff out. Lares tells the player theyīve met before.
quote:
For example, I could have suggested that they kill the Orc Scout by luring him towards the Shadowbeast that sleeps around there (I tried this on more than one occasion and it worked as expected).
If itīs conformed to work you can include this.
quote:
Basically, are we to keep solutions brief in content or in form? In other words, shall we stick to the main solutions, or describe every possible solution, still trying to keep the number of words to a minimum? This strategy is again dictated by you.
You can describe every solution if itīs confirmed to work and not almost identical to another. For example it would be too much to describe every place one can jump into the ocean and swim to the harbor.
:Bartok:
Okay, I wasnīt sure.
:pdf:
We export the whole thing later on. Iīll try it with Open Office -it has integrated pdf export since the latest version. If it doesnīt work Iīll send it to somebody with an Acrobat license.
We list alternatives as I wrote in the other post. If the quests are enumerated (see 123.a) looks better than (see 123.1).
Not that it makes much difference, but I prefer it that way.
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Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:23 pm |
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Toaster
Bread Alert
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Posts: 5475
Location: Sweden |
I didn't really get it. Should I just mark the quests I can can contribute with and send the list back to you? That's what I think you meant, but I'm not sure.
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Tue Oct 21, 2003 4:20 pm |
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