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| Should the UN do anything about North Korea? |
| Yes. N. Korea should be disarmed. |
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40% |
[ 4 ] |
| No. The US and UN are meddling where they have no business. |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| No. Let China & South Korea deal with them. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Yes, but try diplomacy first. |
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50% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
SuperCowMan24
Blademaster of the Moo
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 1194
Location: Texas, USA |
is it just me or does diplomacy seem to NOT work these days... or am i just a blind ignorant fool?
_________________
Moo. Just do it, purse your lips and let out a MIGHTY MOO!
Don't you feel better now? |
Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:03 am |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by SuperCowMan24
is it just me or does diplomacy seem to NOT work these days... or am i just a blind ignorant fool?
If you are, I am.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:31 pm |
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NidPuterGuy
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 237
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Why are we so damn meddlesome. Let Koreas neighbors worry about it. We will build SDI so we can thumb our nose at Korea if they ever do get to build a real ICBM. I really doubt they can deliver the one or two so called nukes that they maybe have. We should pull our troops out of S Korea and quit worrying about it. Somedays I wish the Canadians wouldn't have let us keep the 49th parralel. I'd be Canadian eh. No mass migration of Mexicans. No past slavery issues still haunting them. Both the demos and repubs drive me nuts with their rabid views.
http://geography.about.com/library/weekly/aa031600a.htm |
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 6:50 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
They were given economic incentives by various countries including the US to shut down their nuclear industry, including for civilian use.
One of the "incentives" was help with construction of two 1GW light water nuclear power plants. A project US contractors and government practically abandoned a year later. This is the driving point behind the current situation. NK was developing their own heavy water nuclear power plants with expertise they had to develop on their own. Such power plants create by-products that can potentially be used for making nuclear weapons. In order to stop their research into such power plants, "the west" has agreed to provide them with necessary expertise to build "clean" powerplants. Four years later, the construction sites stand empty and abandoned, while the country suffers a horrible power crisis. As Roach quoted:
quote:
Originally posted by Suicidal Cockroach
The operating room's cement floor was stained with old blood, and the surgery was performed next to a window for light: the hospital didn't have electricity.'
This hospital has no electicity because "the west" chose not to let NK have their nuclear power plants. They also chose to ignore years of NK begging them to resume the construction. When they finally had enough begging and depending on handouts, they are declared "evil." Go figure.
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
Desite all of this, they have produced 1 or 2 nuclear bombs (which may not have been tested as otherwise they would probably have been discovered sooner).
There is absolutely no proof for that. And anybody who claims that this is the truth is lying.
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
The US discovered their existence, question North Korea about it, and got an admission that North Korea has them.
Now, imagine I'm sitting at home minding my own buisness. You, a big brutish bully, bust down my door with a gun in your hand and size up the belongings in my house, as I run up to meet you. My hand is behind my back, as if hiding something. The first thing out of your mouth is: "Is that a gun you have?" Could you possibly give me a logical reason why I would say "no?"
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
North Korea promptly pulled out of the treaty which they already violated, and stated that if attacked by South Korea / the US, they would respond with nuclear weapons.
Treaties generally work two ways. If one side pulls out and breaks the treaty (as "the west" did for many years), it's somewhat hypocritical to point a finger when the other party decides to stop adhearing(sp?) to the same, already broken, treaty.
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
(There is no report that South Korea or the US has plans for such an invasion.)
Which doesn't mean that there is no such plans. Besides, SK showed desire to amalgamate with NK more than once. It is their clear and public agenda. On top of that, I recall being shown, on CNN how US and SK "special forces" are training together. In this "report" I was shown how well they can shoot targets dressed in NK uniforms, as well as how they can silently slit a throat of someone dressed in a NK uniform (this was actually shown). If I was in NK, I'd take that as a clear hint.
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
Subsequently, they restarted one of their old nuclear reactors which would be capable of making further fissionable material for nuclear weapons, although there is no evidence that it is being used in this way.
Original intent for these reactors was research into production of electricity. Since "the west" is so protective of their nuclearn technologies, NK needs to reinvent the wheel. This also means that they need to go through the processes which resulted in "the west" having nuclear bombs of their own.
DISCLAIMER: for those who may be tempted to become offended, please understand that I'm being a devil's advocate here. The above is presentation of "known" facts (I can dig up respectable sources for each and every thing I said) in a "different" light. A light as one would see it in if looking from the other side of the fence. I don't claim to know what it's like in NK. I don't claim to know what their ruling party thinks or desires. So, before you pounce on me, use the above as educational material only.
@Suicidal Cockroach
I'm surprised that you, of all people, would fall for such propaganda. Don't you think I could go around and construct a picture of US to portray it as the most horrible and evil place in the world? A country where government injects its people with lethal chemicals, brain washes its people through media, does not care about its poor and downtrodden and leaves them to die of starvation in the streets, hijacks foreign nationals and keeps them imprisoned without cause or reason, etc. It would be all too easy. Why don't I do it? Because I know that it would be a fabricated lie. A misrepresentation of the actual truth. Just as that portrayal of NK you presented looks very much fabricated and misrepresentative of the truth. I'm having a very hard time believing that no hospital in NK has electricity or anesthetic. And that's how, what you presented, paints NK. It paints the whole country to be just like "Auschwitz and Dachau." No country is like that. And anybody who tells you otherwise is feeding you propaganda.
As far as US being the only one to make it right, I'm sure they are refering to the two unfinished power plants that are still sitting there waiting to be completed.
As far as poll goes, I can't answer it. I would like a 5th option which says:
"No. The US are meddling where they have no business." If UN decides NK is overstepping its international bounds, than that's fine with me. But US being the "world watchdog" is not fine with me. The last two world wars were started by "watchdogs" that were trying to enforce the "correct" state of affairs upon the world.
_________________
(@) |
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:27 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
Desite all of this, they have produced 1 or 2 nuclear bombs (which may not have been tested as otherwise they would probably have been discovered sooner).
There is absolutely no proof for that. And anybody who claims that this is the truth is lying.
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
The US discovered their existence, question North Korea about it, and got an admission that North Korea has them.
Now, imagine I'm sitting at home minding my own buisness. You, a big brutish bully, bust down my door with a gun in your hand and size up the belongings in my house, as I run up to meet you. My hand is behind my back, as if hiding something. The first thing out of your mouth is: "Is that a gun you have?" Could you possibly give me a logical reason why I would say "no?"
Agreed that the public has not seen conclusive proof of the weaons. No satellite pictures or evidence of nuclear testing has been show. What we do have is NK's statement, for what it is worth.
However, if you feel you are being threatened by a bully, an answer like NK's that is a lie cuts both ways. There are 4 scenarios which need to be analyzed using your bullying analogy:
1) Have nuclear weapons (NWs) and admit to it - may or may not deter the bully; if bully continues the bullying behavior, you will at least hurt the bully to some extent. If bully backs off, you are in a better position. However, future confrontations are likely to be hostile.
2) Don't have NWs and say you don't have any - may get bully to back off and lead to non-hostile confrontations. You're not bothering the bully, so he's not going to bother you.
3) Have NWs and deny their existence - Short term better relations with long terms negative consequences. Once your lie is exposed, you have lost your credibility for negotiating and your prospects for peaceful resolution of issues.
4) Don't have NWs and say you do have them - A dangerous bluff, that may lead to a premature or previously unplanned attack by the bully. If your bluff is called, you won't even hurt the bully. If your bluff is not called immediately, it still leads to you being looked at suspiciously even if the truth is not discovered.
The bully analogy is imperfect for a lot of reasons. But it suffices for now.
Now since NK has said we have NWs, then we're only analyzing #1 and #4. A truthful admission makes NK a more threatening target, but runs the risk of provoking an attack where there is none planned.
Scenario #4, which MoonDragon is postulating may be the reality, does have risks for NK. If the bully backs off, you've won. But it may not deter the bully (I'll knock the victim out before he can counterattack). And it may provoke the bully into an ealier or stronger attack, which might otherwise have been averted. On the other hand, in the political arena (as opposed to the schoolyard bully), successfully pulling off this bluff could have positive consequences, even if the bluff is later revealed.
Personally, I will take NK at their word and say were looking at scenario #1.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Sat Feb 08, 2003 4:12 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Interesting read:
http://www.washtimes.com/commentary/20021202-17924287.htm
I really don't care much either way.
North Korea has chose a good time enforcing their buildup, while the U.S. are occupied with Iraq. But I think both sides will take diplomacy as far as they can.
Even though North Korea has one of the largest armies in the world, they wouldn't stand much of a chance against U.S.A. with or without nuclear weapons.
On the other hand, Bush probably knows that a war with NK would cost many lives on both sides, perhaps too many lives, so he won't be as energic to go to "polishing-up-war" like with Iraq.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Feb 09, 2003 7:53 pm |
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RastaBlasta420
Village Leader
Joined: 23 Oct 2002
Posts: 92
Location: Canada |
This is a good excuse for America to get rid of some of there bombs. KABOOM!  |
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Thu Mar 06, 2003 4:37 am |
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