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| Should the UN do anything about North Korea? |
| Yes. N. Korea should be disarmed. |
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40% |
[ 4 ] |
| No. The US and UN are meddling where they have no business. |
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10% |
[ 1 ] |
| No. Let China & South Korea deal with them. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Yes, but try diplomacy first. |
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50% |
[ 5 ] |
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| Total Votes : 10 |
Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Sam, I read the other day that Nelson Mandela accused Bush of being racist because he may not wait around for Kofi Annan's(a black man) ok for action. This goes to show that many objections to taking care of Saddam have nothing to do with the lack of evidence or whatever and more to do with a a personal hatred of Bush and a desire to set him up to fail.
As for NK, we haven't been screwing around for 12 years with them, and the fact that they have nukes changes everything. This should be given time to see what negotiations will do. Military action may be necessary in this case, but I am inclined to say let China/Russia/Japan/SK primarily field this one. Of course, everyone loves to hate the US, but they all depend on us to be the world police. US will likely have to take the lead again.
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
Sat Feb 01, 2003 8:59 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
With North Korea, my feeling at this time is to wait and see.
Before my explanation, first a history lesson:
Korea is currently divided between the "Communist" north and "capitalistic" south. While they were formerly one country, it wound up being divided up as part of the Cold War. In the post-Cold War era, both sides would like to reunify like Germany did, but the current political situation won't permit that. North Korea is still capable of economically remaining a separate country. US troops are still in South Korea, to prevent a possible invasion from the North. I am unaware of any foreign troops currently in North Korea.
North Korea signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, agreeing that they would not seek nuclear weapons. They were given economic incentives by various countries including the US to shut down their nuclear industry, including for civilian use. Desite all of this, they have produced 1 or 2 nuclear bombs (which may not have been tested as otherwise they would probably have been discovered sooner). The US discovered their existence, question North Korea about it, and got an admission that North Korea has them. North Korea promptly pulled out of the treaty which they already violated, and stated that if attacked by South Korea / the US, they would respond with nuclear weapons. (There is no report that South Korea or the US has plans for such an invasion.) Subsequently, they restarted one of their old nuclear reactors which would be capable of making further fissionable material for nuclear weapons, although there is no evidence that it is being used in this way. Until the US confronted North Korea about it, there was no evidence of further nuclear development under way.
The issues: 1) Will North Korea use their nuclear weapons pre-emptively? 2) Will they use them if attacked by conventional weapons? 3) Will they be able to keep their nuclear weapons out of the hands of terrorists? 4) Will they sell their nuclear technology to other "rogue" nations?
As I see the answers to these issues:
1) Not in the foreseeable future. North Korea is not saber-rattling at any country other than South Korea. It's not good strategy to nuke areas you're going to be invading.
2) It is believed that North Korea doesn't have the missle technology to hit the US with nuclear warheads. (Apparently, there is a big difference in conventional v. nuclear missile technology. I do not know the differences.) Therefore the only targets at this point would be elsewhere in Asia. While South Korea would be an easy target, it would be killing other Koreans - former countrymen. I don't think they are likely to do that, even defensively.
3) North Korea has never been accused of supporting terrorism worldwide, just being communistic and anti-US. Barring complete incompetence by the North Koreans, which I am not accusing them of, it will not be easy (I'd say probability of well <.01%) for a terrorist group to steal one of their weapons on a first attempt [and any failed first attempt would lead to more security, thereby decreasing the likelihood further for succesive attempts]. And since they don't have the terrorist connection, I don't think terrorists will just be able to buy them.
4) This is the biggest issue in my mind - would they sell it to another country? Short term, I don't think they're inclined to do it. It might lead to South Korea, China and Japan seeking nuclear technology as a deterrent of mutually assured destruction. They've got a "club" that those 3 countries don't have, and they don't want to encourage those 3 countries to get the same or a bigger club. Long term, they might seek to enter the world's arms market in this way, if their economy substantially collapses. However, this is not happening in the foreseeable future.
So since I don't see North Korea using, losing or selling the nuclear weapons at any foreseeable time, I am not going to say that the US needs to act militarily now. Diplomacy and economics are the way to go. Are the North Koreans 100% trustworthy? Not by a long shot (then again, no country is  ). But since they have given no indication of an attempt to influence politics by war outside of the Korean penninsula, I think diplomacy and economics may still work.
Edit:
@Roach - You're right. I should have put in an option for just diplomacy and the UN, without anything with regards to the US. I thought I did, but I obviously didn't. I'll see if I can change the poll options. But since the results of the poll are meaningless anyway, I'm not going to worry about re-setting the votes.
Edit 2:
I can't seem to change the poll options now.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Sun Feb 02, 2003 10:27 pm |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
Well, I am in favour of the US or any country for that matter should disarm Iraq. Or if we don't, they might get their hands on nuclear weapons and become a big threat, just like NK. NK now has nuclear power, and anyone having nuclear weapons is considered too be VERY dangerous. Now the question is if we should do anything about NK now, or wait and let them get more nuclear power. I think that the four rulers (UN/USA/RUSSIA/EU) should do something about NK. What they should do, I don't know.
Someone said something about USA being the world police. Well, that's how everyone wanted it, even the US. They won WWII and had nuclear weapons, and I must say they showed it in Japan.
NK is hard to deal with at this point, but if we wait, they will become even harder to deal with.
Now, everyone prey to god that someone will invent some kind of anti-nuclear weapon. 
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Sun Feb 02, 2003 11:50 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Bilbo: If you like I can see if I can modify the poll since I have moderator rights in this forum.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:29 am |
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Finarfin
Baron of the Court
Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 345
Location: London |
i see absolutely no reason tp do anything about North Korean. Bushs statement about it being part of an "axis of evil" is one of the dumbest things he has said, and he has said alot.
there is no evidence that NK is a danger to anyone, just because they have atomic weapons doesn't mean they intend to use them (the only countries likely to use them are the US and Isreal!), the only reason they got them in the first place to to defend themselves against possible US backed aggression by SK.
now it is very sad that Korean has been plit into 2 countries, but this is a result of meddling by china and the US.
just becuase a country is "communist" and anti US, doesn't mean they are "evil". Plenty of countries have grounds to be anti US as a result of the US's "trade with us or fight us" foreign policy.
_________________
I didn't get where i am today by talking in clichés, i avoid clichés like the plague, a cliché to me is like a red rag to a bull..... |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:18 am |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
Finarfin, it's just that some countries, mostly communists or similiar, don't like the US and its allies. That's why they could be a big threat. I'm not saying I am against NK having nuclear weapons but just imagine if the middle-east, NK and the rest of the non-democracy countries should form an allience against the rest of the world. Then there would probably become a new WW.
Some middle-east countries want to be bombed, they want their cities to be bombed. You know why? Because if they get bombed by the rich countries, we owe them to set up new facilities. And if they get new facilities they could produce more weapons. And if a powerfull man that don't like the US gets his/hers hand on powerfull weapons, it could have a devasting effect.
I bet some people fight the US because of its power. I don't like that one country has such a power and the US don't like that other countries have a little power. That's why everyone is bombing everyone, to proove that they are powerfull and that everyone should fear them. But most of the leaders are blinded of their power, even the US president is. Sending bombs against structures with people, civil people, is wrong. It doesn't proove that you are powerfull, it prooves that you don't care about other people then your own.
So, I think that we should disarm Iraq and try to negotiate NK to look more against our political view and keep them calm.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 10:53 am |
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Finarfin
Baron of the Court
Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 345
Location: London |
quote:
I'm not saying I am against NK having nuclear weapons but just imagine if the middle-east, NK and the rest of the non-democracy countries should form an allience against the rest of the world
thats what i mean it is just an imagination, why would NK and iraq ever form an alliance, it wouldn't be logical for either of them. we can't go meddling in other countries business just because they might be a threat one day. or the US should bomb europe before it gets too powerful. if europe unites one day then i would be a serious rival to the US in terms of power, so the US should bomb them now to stop this happening!
i have seen no proof that NK is a threat to anyone, even SK, let alone the US, in fact i can't see how Iraq is a threat to the US either. the only result of bush's campaigns will be a fresh generation of people who hate the US, so another step backwards, well done bush!
_________________
I didn't get where i am today by talking in clichés, i avoid clichés like the plague, a cliché to me is like a red rag to a bull..... |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 11:17 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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Yesterday I was content to say that North Korea is the UN’s problem, and they should deal with it. Especially after all the resistance we’ve gotten about Saddam. But last night I saw a report on 60 minutes featuring a German doctor named Norbert Vollertsen who is one of the few westerners to have been allowed to see more of North Korea then the official government tour. This man worked at North Korean children’s hospitals for about 18 months and was able to bring back pictures and a little bit of video of what life is like inside North Korea. It was absolutely heart-wrenching, 60% of the population is suffering from malnutrition, there are 15 year olds who look like they are 6 because their bodies never got enough nutrients to grow, many women’s bodies no longer work properly (menstruation and such) at young ages because of the lack of food. And I saw children literally picking insects off of the street and eating them because they were so hungry. There were slave camps that held about 5 million of the country’s 22 million population, who’s only crime was to question the government. But the worst part were the children’s eyes, every child they showed from age 6 to 15 had dead eyes; the doctor said that these children could no longer manage to feel so much as to even be able to cry.
Many of you may respond by saying that the majority of the people of North Korea still love their government, and that is true. But it is because they are being taught from birth to look at Kim Jong-il, is a Godlike figure who saves them from even worse horrors. And since they do not have phones that can reach outside North Korea, or TVs that can pick up anything other that government feed, and they are not even allowed to talk freely with those few outsiders that are let in from other countries they have no option but to love the government. This is a clear cut case of brainwashing, the doctor even went so far as to call the North Korean government more of a cult than a government.
I want to be able to say that this is the UN’s problem, and that they should handle it, and until I saw those pictures, and that video, and heard that doctor’s stories of what he had seen and been told I did believe that. But now I know that this is not the problem of one or two or even of a few countries, this is a problem for all of humanity. We need to forgo things like nationality and politics and race and religion and come together as an entire species. So long as people suffer to this extent we should be ashamed of ourselves for thinking that anything, no matter the cost, could be more important than helping these people.
If anyone does not agree with those last few sentences then I challenge you to research Norbert Vollertsen’s findings and not have your mind changed.
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:35 pm |
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Finarfin
Baron of the Court
Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 345
Location: London |
well if that is true, then i change my position somewhat, i would say that the UN should do something to help the people of north korea, something that is useful and non-violent though.
_________________
I didn't get where i am today by talking in clichés, i avoid clichés like the plague, a cliché to me is like a red rag to a bull..... |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 3:53 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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'At the Sinwon hospital, doctors were preparing to perform an emergency appendectomy on a young North Korean girl. The anesthetic hadn't worked, but the doctors operated anyway. As the surgeons sliced into the girl's belly, her muscles tightened and tears poured down her face, but she didn't scream. Vollertsen took the girl's hand and held it throughout the half-hour operation: "I couldn't believe my eyes. She was so brave—I was nearly crying."
The hospital had no drugs, disinfectant, syringes, IV drips or soap. The doctors worked without surgical gloves. There were no toilets inside the facility, and water had to be hauled in by bucket. The operating room's cement floor was stained with old blood, and the surgery was performed next to a window for light: the hospital didn't have electricity.'
"Food and medical aid won't make much of an impact, he argues, if the outside world doesn't pressure Pyongyang to cease oppressing its citizens." [Vollertsen]
'Vollertsen was visiting a children's hospital in Pyongsong, a town north of the capital. He walked into a room filled with young children with hollow eyes and skin stretched tight across their faces. To the German doctor, their faces and blue-and-white striped pajamas were horrifyingly familiar: "They looked like the children in Auschwitz and Dachau," says Vollertsen.' |
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 4:23 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
@Bilbo: If you like I can see if I can modify the poll since I have moderator rights in this forum.
If you feel like it, go ahead. You'd certainly make Roach happy.  And if you can change it, can you also reset it? Let people know what you're doing and if they should re-vote.
@Roach - You're right. Something needs to be done to help NK and other undeveloped countries so that their people have hope and a decent standard of living. But as Finarfin pointed out, simply attacking NK (or any other country) is not going to accomplish this. Replace Kim Jong-Il with a non-benevolent dictator, and your still in the same economy with no hope of change for the better. With Iraq, the US is committed to humanitarian aid during a possible war, and to rebuilding the country afterwards.
@Finarfin - NK being part of an "axis of evil" is hyperbole. NK has previously talked about invading SK, but not world domination. The US presence in SK is probably the strongest deterrent to such an invasion, and a big reason why another war hasn't broken out there. But NK has not said they are a threat to anyone other than SK. One of the reasons I do not support military action against NK at this point is that they haven't threatened to use their nuclear weapons offensively / pre-emptively. Also, with regards to Israel, please note that they have not used their nuclear weapons through the 4-5 wars they've had them, and also note that Iraq and Libya might well have nuclear weapons at this point had Israel conventionally bombed their nuclear research facilities. [Hmm, also note that Qadaffi has not been working to rebuild the nuclear weapons program while Saddam has. Coincidence as to why Bush labeled one evil and the other not? I don't think so....]
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Wed Feb 05, 2003 1:41 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Okay, I think that fixed it. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Wed Feb 05, 2003 6:08 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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I was about to withdraw my complaint about the poll. It seems that North Korea refuses to negotiate with the UN and will only negotiate with the US. So should the UN continue its practices of only intervening when it believes it has no other options, it will be up to the US do deal with the problem. |
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Wed Feb 05, 2003 8:24 pm |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Suicidal Cockroach
I was about to withdraw my complaint about the poll. It seems that North Korea refuses to negotiate with the UN and will only negotiate with the US. So should the UN continue its practices of only intervening when it believes it has no other options, it will be up to the US do deal with the problem.
Do you know why they refuse?
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Wed Feb 05, 2003 9:06 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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They said that the US was the only one that could ‘make things right.’
And no, I can’t explain what they meant by that. |
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Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:25 am |
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