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quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
About Gothic II, I agree with txa1265.
Apparently I messed up in my wording, because Gothic II is one of my all-time fave RPG's and getting smacked down like that was one of the reasons I loved it. When I'm level 1 I shouldn't be taking on Orcs, and when I'm level 40 a rat shouldn't be able to touch me.
Mike
Sorry, my bad but honestly it didn't sound like fun for me.
Also, even in Oblivion, rats have a fixed level cap. So, I think some people exaggerating but I agree with that the scaling was not done well enough. I don't have much complaint about Oblivion simply because I didn't spend much time on it.
Futhermore, I didn't mean that I hated Gothic II but I felt it definitely took much more time than I wanted to spend on it. I admit that the sense of danger in wilderness was an important part in Gothic II but it became repetitive too quickly for my taste. |
Mon May 22, 2006 3:38 pm |
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SadGothicFan
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NO , NO, NO please don't do that! Adapting enemies difficulty levels is horrible! I hate it! please don't ruin Gothic 3.
Sad Fan |
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Mon May 22, 2006 4:10 pm |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
quote:
Originally posted by txa1265
Apparently I messed up in my wording, because Gothic II is one of my all-time fave RPG's and getting smacked down like that was one of the reasons I loved it. When I'm level 1 I shouldn't be taking on Orcs, and when I'm level 40 a rat shouldn't be able to touch me.
Mike
Yep, agree 100%. I also didn't mind how the game got easier towards the end. In G2 for example, going to get all your buddies to help you out was very cool and towards the end the story should carry the game more than the challenge i think.
_________________
Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Mon May 22, 2006 4:54 pm |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
My interest in this game just decreased dramatically. I hated scaling so much in Oblivion that this game just went from a "buy on release day" to "bargain bin". |
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Mon May 22, 2006 4:56 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Do you honestly enjoy knowing that at any given moment, every dungeon in the gameworld is exactly the same? That there is no risk, reward or sense of the unknown because every dungeon is carefully homogenised?
Yes, if you are interested in exploration, you are likely to be unhappy with the lack of variety, while Oblivion offered a lot of reasonable vast dungeons, they look more or less similar. Also, the species of the creatures are rather limited. However, this is just a matter of quality vs quantity of the graphics. I don’t think it is easy to keep that high level of graphics and the variety of the sceneries and animations at the same time.
In Oblivion, my game-play focus was in solving quests and, thanx to the level-scaling, I didn’t take too much time in finishing them. I found this nice especially when I didn’t find them so interesting.
About Gothic II, I agree with txa1265. I was just persistent enough to finish the game but I don't think the content worth the time I spent on re-loading. It definitely required my time but not my brains. Of course, I enjoyed trying out various things and seeing how they would turn out but I don't think even them worth the time I spent on the game.
This is just my hypothesis but it seems a part of hardcore fans became too addicted to old games which require re-loading constantly and cannot stand "easier" games. They may think the "overwhelming power" which they can get later in such games is worth sacrificing their time in their lives but I don't think the majority would think in that way. I don't know whether the designers are going to be successful but, for me, I think they are going to right direction. Unlike Oblivion, they are trying to make the interactions and consequences more interesting. If someone calls this dumbing-down, I'd ask him what is so intelligent about re-loading.
Of course, this is just a matter of taste. Personally, I liked the direction of Bioshock most in E3 and I like Irrational probably because they seem to be constantly thinking of how intelligent and interesting computer games can be.
I definitely agree with you that the trial & error gameplay of Gothic II (+ NotR) can be very tedious. Besides, it's pretty much impossible to memorize all of the locations that you could not access at a low level and then to remember to return to them at a higher level.
I would have loved to see a /con (consider) system in Gothic II where you would target an enemy and then hit a button to /con the enemy's strength (Star Wars Galaxies -when it was still an MMORPG without levels(!)- had a system like that a long time ago).
The con levels could have been:
- Blue Font (if player character is +10+ levels higher than mob): "I should be able to wipe the floor with this critter."
- Green Font (if player character is +5 levels higher than mob): "This should be an easy fight."
- White Font (if player character is within -4/+4 levels from mob): "This pretty much looks like an even match."
- Yellow Font (if player character is -5 levels lower than mob): "This is gonna hurt but I should be able to make it out alive."
- Red Font (if player character is -10 levels lower than mob): "It would be dumb luck if I survived this fight."
- Purple Font (if player character is -10+ levels lower than mob): "Forget it. This one is going to be instant death."
The obvious problem with a /con system in games like Gothic/Oblivion is player skill, of course. Some people will find ways to kill red/purple mobs without breaking a sweat and so the /con system can become pretty inaccurate.
Still, it's better than trial & error and also better than scaling IMHO. It would give you an idea of a mob's strength and it would feel rather natural within the game. Who doesn't pick their fights?
Oh well, I hope that PB don't exaggerate the scaling like Bethesda did. |
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Mon May 22, 2006 5:13 pm |
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If Gothic 3 is bastardized by Oblivion/American Trash in any way then i will go over the order and slit as many throats as i can  |
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Mon May 22, 2006 5:25 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
If Gothic 3 is bastardized by Oblivion/American Trash in any way then i will go over the order and slit as many throats as i can
Congratulations. You win the internet! /golfclap
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Mon May 22, 2006 5:47 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
quote:
Raise our voices of concern mightily before tis too late!
Let us pray.Let us protest ruthlessly that the miracle in the making in the waiting called Gothic III is not cursed with the autoscaling abomination of Oblivion. Proper scaling is a gift from the halls of paradise for all involved but if used in the slipshod dumped on lazy idiotic laughable manner the makers of Oblivion did it then Gothic III will surely fall before the spirits of unrewarding frustration.
Amen
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
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Mon May 22, 2006 5:48 pm |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
Gothic's tedium came more from crappy controls and interface than open-endedness. Plus, there were all sorts of ways that you could cheese your way through tough areas, like lure out enemies and have guards kill them. The toughness of the game, especially Gothic 1, was instrumental in making it enjoyable. All that you have to do is save your game before you run in somewhere. This is much preferable to gaining 30 levels and getting killed by a godlike sewer rat because the sewer rat is scaling with you. In Oblivion, random bears and wolves were more dangerous to me than the game's big boss.
One major change that I would make, in addition to controls, is to give the player a map at the beginning of the game. Having to play with no map for a while made Gothic 1 very hard for me to get into. |
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Mon May 22, 2006 7:09 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by doctor_kaz
Gothic's tedium came more from crappy controls and interface than open-endedness. Plus, there were all sorts of ways that you could cheese your way through tough areas, like lure out enemies and have guards kill them. The toughness of the game, especially Gothic 1, was instrumental in making it enjoyable. All that you have to do is save your game before you run in somewhere. This is much preferable to gaining 30 levels and getting killed by a godlike sewer rat because the sewer rat is scaling with you. In Oblivion, random bears and wolves were more dangerous to me than the game's big boss.
Neither the controls or the interface in Gothic were crappy. That sounds like an excuse from someone who has a hard time adapting. It took me less than 30 minutes to become completely comfortable with Gothics control scheme the first time I played it.
Also, luring out enemies to fight guards is not a "cheese" tactic. It adds to the realism of the game world. You don't gain any experience from an enemy killed by a guard anyway. |
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Mon May 22, 2006 8:06 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by TheMadGamer
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
If Gothic 3 is bastardized by Oblivion/American Trash in any way then i will go over the order and slit as many throats as i can
Congratulations. You win the internet! /golfclap
You'll be the first one i kill then you're family right after i burn them then piss on them  |
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Mon May 22, 2006 9:12 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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Autoscaling makes gaming almost as interesting as cleaning a junior game designer's mental bathroom, albeit less productive in the larger scheme of things.
The more I hear about G3, the worse it seems to get. I truly need some help on nitpicking for positives. Rootkit, skill overhaul feature, autoscaling, slave trading assasins... Where did the love go? |
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Mon May 22, 2006 11:23 pm |
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Sir Markus
Counselor of the King
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 369
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
If Gothic 3 is bastardized by Oblivion/American Trash in any way then i will go over the order and slit as many throats as i can
What a coward, why don't you at least register. Also, threatening violence isn't funny in my book. Pig. |
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Tue May 23, 2006 12:00 am |
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quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
I definitely agree with you that the trial & error gameplay of Gothic II (+ NotR) can be very tedious. Besides, it's pretty much impossible to memorize all of the locations that you could not access at a low level and then to remember to return to them at a higher level.
I would have loved to see a /con (consider) system in Gothic II where you would target an enemy and then hit a button to /con the enemy's strength (Star Wars Galaxies -when it was still an MMORPG without levels(!)- had a system like that a long time ago).
The con levels could have been:
- Blue Font (if player character is +10+ levels higher than mob): "I should be able to wipe the floor with this critter."
- Green Font (if player character is +5 levels higher than mob): "This should be an easy fight."
- White Font (if player character is within -4/+4 levels from mob): "This pretty much looks like an even match."
- Yellow Font (if player character is -5 levels lower than mob): "This is gonna hurt but I should be able to make it out alive."
- Red Font (if player character is -10 levels lower than mob): "It would be dumb luck if I survived this fight."
- Purple Font (if player character is -10+ levels lower than mob): "Forget it. This one is going to be instant death."
The obvious problem with a /con system in games like Gothic/Oblivion is player skill, of course. Some people will find ways to kill red/purple mobs without breaking a sweat and so the /con system can become pretty inaccurate.
Still, it's better than trial & error and also better than scaling IMHO. It would give you an idea of a mob's strength and it would feel rather natural within the game. Who doesn't pick their fights?
Oh well, I hope that PB don't exaggerate the scaling like Bethesda did.
Just in case, I'll try to make myself clearer. The trial & error part, which requires some observations, was what I liked about Gothic II, hence, the reference to Bioshock, where "creatures" formed or forming an ecosystem. Different from spot-PC-attack-him AI in TES, Gothic II AI had a few varieties of reactions, which offered players the feel of wandering wilderness. However, unfortunately, after I adapted the "tactics" of luring a creature by hitting it with projectiles, it became a routine till my character got powerful enough to trash hostiles without the trick. Also, I felt my character became suddenly powerful toward the end.
I like the variety of reactions of NPC in Gothic II ranging from low intelligent creatures to humanoid creatures (Bioshock team seems to have given up with the more intelligent creatures and put its focus on more atmospheric closed environment). However, I found a problem with the balance in combat. I'd like to feel the game reasonably challenging with some occasional twists to excite my neurons or to keep my interests. Level-scaling or con-system you mentioned, I'd like the developers to put efforts in this respect.
Of course, I have already mentioned that Oblivion level-scaling is imperfect, actually, I think it is much less than being imperfect. However, IIRC, different from Gothic II, the Gothic III team mentioned that they were not going to divide the areas into chapters, which won't allow them to use the same balancing system with the one in Gothic II. There should be some other ways to balance the game. |
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Tue May 23, 2006 1:01 am |
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abbaon fat dot
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ghola
Autoscaling makes gaming almost as interesting as cleaning a junior game designer's mental bathroom
That doesn't interest you? It sounds fascinating to me. I'd take the job just to find out what on earth it means. |
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Tue May 23, 2006 2:12 am |
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