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ShadowWolfe
Noble Knight
Joined: 19 Feb 2003
Posts: 205
Location: In the northern mountains of the western continent. |
I dont really like the fps rpgs ... i find isometric better , but third person is best imho i like seeing the different armor types and looks of swords on my character... not feeling like im running around with arms coming out my ears like in fps's... but give iso more credit, games with isometric views usually dont waste their content on models and terrain and focus more on the story and character development.
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Sat Mar 22, 2003 6:12 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
CRPGnut, 3D does not equal quality, nor does 2D either, as some hardcore CRPG enthusiasts believe. The graphics seem to take the best from both worlds--3D for character customizability and 2D for detailed and beautiful backdrops. The Lionheart dev team has been responsive to concerns and criticisms of the game. For example, they changed their interface and character portraits based on early feedback.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Sat Mar 22, 2003 4:02 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
For me, roleplaying is about total immersion, so iso or 3rd person just won't do the trick at all. Iso or other 3rd person perspectives do work (well, I love RTSes), but not for games which are meant to draw me in via their story and environment. It's just the exceptional game that manages to do it.
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Jaz |
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Sat Mar 22, 2003 5:51 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
WEll I started 2 isometric games at the same time a few months ago.
Divinie divinity and IWD2. The IWD2 characters looked like nintendo1 compared to the DD avatar.
I would prefer my isometirc characters be even larger than DD if I play another game like that.
I agree 100% Stamar. I love Divine Divinity because I could actually SEE
the changes made to my characters. That was necessary in DD because
alot of DD is item accumulation. I believe that Lionheart's focus is a little
different than DD's but I still would prefer to be able to see my characters
a little easier. Lionheart might not get a full price purchase from me because of it, but I will still buy the game. I'm getting real leary of paying full price for these games. Very few games are worth $50+ in my opionion.
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'nut |
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Mon Mar 24, 2003 3:03 pm |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Heh Divine divinity is a great game.
Are you aware that the avatar animations, just for the six characters you can be mind you, are 800 mb?
that is a third of the data in that very large game. How many games are going to hand draw that many frames of characters at that resolution I dont know. I have a feeling that none are in the pipeline.
Actually baldurs gate is an even more mammouth graphic design task it is just much smaller and less detailed. |
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Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:05 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
For me, roleplaying is about total immersion, so iso or 3rd person just won't do the trick at all. Iso or other 3rd person perspectives do work (well, I love RTSes), but not for games which are meant to draw me in via their story and environment. It's just the exceptional game that manages to do it.
This is exactly like written right out of my mind.
I played almost all those RTS games with RPG elements like BG1+2, IWD1, PST and many other of it's kind, and had a good time playing them, but it still feels like RTS, where you try not to loose any of your units in combat, and you get interrupted know and then (talking to NPC's) to advance the story. It's like reading a book, while you follow the small pieces on the game board at the same time. You don't really get involved with you own senses, as you like a god can see around corners and houses way before you characters can, and the gameworld feels like a dolls house in miniature format.
The third person view (close over head), or best of all first person view, gives the best immersive gameworld feeling, where you have to move around the corners yourself, to see what's there. See traps spring up your face, or get ambushed, is giving you a way better adrenaline rush. For me is the best CRPG's where your really feel like your character and you are like one person, and you feel like walking around in the playworld yourself. Ofcourse Story, character development, interaction, NPC's also contributes heavily for a believable world.
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Tue Mar 25, 2003 3:42 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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Full 3D is really the only way to go these days. Give us some product for our money.
Imagine how much better Arecanum would be if it was full 3D and gave first and third person views.
I don't find it necessary to give us both 3rd and 1st person views, choose one of the two if the game is more suited to one or the other, or if the developer really feels like being a professional, give us both options ala Morrowind. However, unlike Morrowind please give us cool animations in 3rd person mode (think Gothic 3rd person mode with Morrowind 1st person mode with Arx Fatalis cool rune drawing spell system/Morrowind spell creation hybrid and a combat system more akin to jedi knight II meets gothic with combos, flips, rolls, charges, sword throwing, backflipping head hacking goodness).
A combat system that is more than point and click is a damn fine idea. Think Gothic and maybe expand on those great ideas a bit to incorporate staff fighting techniques, two weapon fighting, martial artist - like hand to hand combat. See above comment about a Gothic - Jedi Knight II hybrid system.
Of course content is important as well but in this day and age give us the graphical immersion as well or count on continuing to have mediocre sales. Bioware has learned this and KOTOR is a beautiful full 3D world. Deus Ex 2 is coming soon and is full 3D. Fable = full 3D. I think Lionheart will appeal to people that just love RPG's but even some of us RPG nuts (and I have been playing RPG's on computer since the original Zork) are pretty tired of shoddy tiny isometric view graphics. I tried repeatedly to play IWD2 and couldn't hack the shite graphics, same with Arcanum ... i just recently reinstalled it to try it again. I mean the game is good but I have a hard time getting into the game due to the crappy little sprites.
We have moved past the isometric view games (I believe) and the sooner developers get this through their heads the sooner they will start to bring in more substantial paychecks and the sooner they will be able to fund bigger, better, and prettier projects.
As much as story is integral to a good RPG so many other factors can and do contribute to a games coolness factor.
My ideal RPG has:
- A good story (it doesn't need to be overly original but the path through the story should be handled skillfully and imaginitively
- Role Playing options (let us be good or bad, kind or cruel, I'll go so far as to say ther should be multiple pathways through the game and multiple endings or you might as well call your game a STORY PLAYING GAME INSTEAD OF A ROLE PLAYING GAME.)
- A fun and involving conversation system (think NWN or Gothic not Morrowind's)
- A least a semblance of realism with NPC's (think Gothic as a minimum)
- A fun battle system for melee fighters - make warriors more than point click and wait. ( think Jedi Knight II meets Gothic)
- An engaging magic system (think Morrowinds spell creation, item creation meets Arx Fatalis rune drawing system)
- An in depth item and equipment system (Morrowind's was good but I would expand heavily making different colors of each armor type (like why isn't there some black chitin armor? i mean come on just retuexture the crap!) I would also like to see about 10 more full sets of armor
- Challenging gameplay - Morrowind's greatest downfall was lack of forsight into balance. It is essential to have scalable difficultyso those of us that like our games hard have that choice. It is essential that hard difficulty involves more than upping the HP's opf creatures and upping the damage they do. I can elaborate on this point:
- Have the difficulty settings affect:
- HP's
- All stats and skills of NPC's across the board to keep it relatively simple
- Have 3 AI script settings for combat (Normal , Hard , Expert) to correlate to difficulty. You can use a memetic AI structure to relatively easily produce very complex behaviors.
At normal maybe that Orc just charges you when it sees you and chases you down no matter what and uses it's best weapon and attack to try and do you in.
At hard make the Orc perceive the player at a longer distance (he's used to watching his back and stuff). Then make him attack with ranged weapons first and immediately retreat if he does no damage to the player by the time the player has closed half the distance. This adds only a new dimension to the Orc but it makes him substantially more difficult to defeat (he also has beefed up stats, hps' and skills in hard mode). **Player skills like sneak would of course negate the Orc's early percetion of the player if the PC was succesful in sneaking. (or inivs etc just so no onne thinks this would be unfair)***
At expert the Orc perceives at even a slightly longer distance. He also has beefed up stats and skills. He will attempt to move on the player in stealth if he has the skill. If not he will move to other objects (creatures) that carry a FRIEND indentifier and alert them to the presence of the PC. Always retreats to regroup or escape when he reaches half health (no more suicidal NPC's)
This is just a simple system for a standard Agressive non-friendly NPC.
It isn't anything overly hard to script. You can do this quite easily with the NWN engine.
Do the same thing for standard friendly NPC's etc ..., standard thief NPC's (at expert maybe the PC is more likey to be ambushed and mugged at night in towns, at hard maybe the PC just gets pickpocketed or attempted pickpocketing more often, on normal maybe pickpocketing and ambushing only happens at pre scripted times so noobs don't get totally bombardded by difficult encounters.
The only drawback to scripting more advanced behaviors is the use of more CPu cycles. However, most games these days are requiring pretty substantial computers to run so this kind of AI programming should be the norm. (Think of how much better Morrowind woudl be if it used a smarter AI system for it's mobs!)
Also at the varraying levels of difficulty there should appear new and more challenging encounters and adventures not available at the lower settings. Let people replay on hard with their PC they beat the game on normal with etc. I'M ALL ABOUT PROMOTING REPLAY VALUE IN GAMES AND ESPECIALLY RPG'S.
This kind of memetic AI structuring is not hard to script. It's time we start realizing that tech and programming languages are making this kind of stuff alot easier to do. A noob to the programming world could take a couple C++ classes, tinker with the NWN scritping language and in 6 months (or less) be able to program memetic AI routines for NPC's and beasts.
FLAME AWAY  ! |
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Thu Apr 24, 2003 1:15 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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I think the problem here is that people have different expectations of games, and that some people like different play styles. 1st person RPGs like Gothic increase the immersion factor, certainly, but can you imagine playing a party-based game in 1st-person? The AI would have to be really good for most players not to tear their hair out in frustration. And what if one wants direct control of everyone (a la Baldur's Gate line of games)? Then isometric or overhead is really the only way to go. Yes, this is more like a mini-rts/RPG, but that has proven surprisingly effective, and there is a clear demand for this kind of game. As long as they keep producing both types, I think we'll be happy. If the big-picture (i.e. isometric and other removed perspectives) tactical style combat ever completely goes away all for the sake of graphical "progress", that would be a crying shame. I can see it evolving into 3D, but the outside-the-character perspective is necessary for certain types of games. |
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Thu Jul 24, 2003 11:51 am |
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ThouShaltNot
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
Location: New Zealand |
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
For me, roleplaying is about total immersion, so iso or 3rd person just won't do the trick at all. Iso or other 3rd person perspectives do work (well, I love RTSes), but not for games which are meant to draw me in via their story and environment. It's just the exceptional game that manages to do it.
This is exactly like written right out of my mind.
I played almost all those RTS games with RPG elements like BG1+2, IWD1, PST and many other of it's kind, and had a good time playing them, but it still feels like RTS, where you try not to loose any of your units in combat, and you get interrupted know and then (talking to NPC's) to advance the story. It's like reading a book, while you follow the small pieces on the game board at the same time. You don't really get involved with you own senses, as you like a god can see around corners and houses way before you characters can, and the gameworld feels like a dolls house in miniature format.
The third person view (close over head), or best of all first person view, gives the best immersive gameworld feeling, where you have to move around the corners yourself, to see what's there. See traps spring up your face, or get ambushed, is giving you a way better adrenaline rush. For me is the best CRPG's where your really feel like your character and you are like one person, and you feel like walking around in the playworld yourself. Ofcourse Story, character development, interaction, NPC's also contributes heavily for a believable world.
I have an aversion to 1st person perspective. It's like watching a movie where you can't see the main character. You see, when I play RPGs I don't like to think of my character as ME. I'm not a heroic knight or scheming, backstabbing villain (Or am I? Bwahaha ... er ... ahem). No, I'm just a geeky student who would get his ass handed to him in any game setting. I want my character to be a person in their own right, someone whose actions I'm directing. Yet 1st person forces me into my avatar's head space, thus preventing me from viewing the character as an independant person. Instead they just become a camera - my eyes in the gameworld. An interesting side effect of this is that I feel uncomfortable playing a female character in 1st person games, but I have no problem controlling female avatars in any of the external camera perspectives. |
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Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:41 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
This isn't a flame .
quote:
Originally posted by Kabduhl
Full 3D is really the only way to go these days. Give us some product for our money.
What's value for money about 3D? I'll take the beautiful hand-painted backdrops of the IE games or Lionheart over polygons, thank you.
quote:
Imagine how much better Arecanum would be if it was full 3D and gave first and third person views.
No. Arcanum is best played with TB combat and a party - neither work very well in 1st/3rd person.
quote:
A combat system that is more than point and click is a damn fine idea. Think Gothic and maybe expand on those great ideas a bit to incorporate staff fighting techniques, two weapon fighting, martial artist - like hand to hand combat. See above comment about a Gothic - Jedi Knight II hybrid system.
So what you really want is an action game? A shooter with a bit more depth? Many would argue that a true RPG should not rely on the player's dexterity at all, but rather should be rooted in the choices made in character development. I don't subscribe entirely to that theory, but there should be more RPGs than just action-oriented shooter hybrids.
quote:
Of course content is important as well but in this day and age give us the graphical immersion as well or count on continuing to have mediocre sales. Bioware has learned this and KOTOR is a beautiful full 3D world. Deus Ex 2 is coming soon and is full 3D. Fable = full 3D. I think Lionheart will appeal to people that just love RPG's but even some of us RPG nuts (and I have been playing RPG's on computer since the original Zork) are pretty tired of shoddy tiny isometric view graphics. I tried repeatedly to play IWD2 and couldn't hack the shite graphics, same with Arcanum ... i just recently reinstalled it to try it again. I mean the game is good but I have a hard time getting into the game due to the crappy little sprites.
We have moved past the isometric view games (I believe) and the sooner developers get this through their heads the sooner they will start to bring in more substantial paychecks and the sooner they will be able to fund bigger, better, and prettier projects.
Deus Ex was/is a hybrid shooter and should remain that way. KotOR was developed with a console in mind BUT NWN (while 3D) is essentially ISO at heart - are you sure they've "learned a lesson"? BG /BG2 are two of the best selling RPGs ever. Many RPGers would list PS:T and Fallout as two of the best games ever. At what point did we cross the line where ISO no longer worked?
There are plenty of action-RPGs or hybrids for people such as yourself; Gothic/2, Morrowind, Deux Ex/2 - must all RPGs be action hybrids? |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 12:21 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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I have to disagree with you dhruin, there are VERY few rpgs that do combat justice (Gothic, Revenant, maybe arx) because most of them use mouse controls that dont allow the player to do the fighting.
IMO a true rpg MUST allow the player to do the fighting (or use party based/turn based comba)t, as it is also an integral part of roleplaying. And for me, 2d rpgs are outdated. |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 1:41 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by hoyp
IMO a true rpg MUST allow the player to do the fighting (or use party based/turn based comba)t, as it is also an integral part of roleplaying. And for me, 2d rpgs are outdated.
You're arguing for an action game - do you really think a true RPG is really an action game where the player's dexterity substantially determines combat outcomes? Fallout is OK because it's turn-based, but BG isn't because it's continuous phase-based?
I don't have a problem with hybrids - I like lots of them - but there should be room for other alternatives including traditional stat-based RPGs. *All* the old classics use character development rather than player ability. |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:46 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
Graphics can add a great deal to a games enjoyment and immersion factor. But without gameplay they will quickly fade away. Case in point: Dungeon Seige. Very, very good graphics and a brilliant presentation. But the game almost plays itself. You can only take it in small doses and you're bound to get a bit bored if you play it for too long.
On the other end of the specturm we have something like Jagged Alliance 2. Sort of a tactial/strategy game with RPG elements. The graphics are isometric and are simiply competent. Nothing truly outstanding. But ohhh, what amazing and addictive gameplay. Between the mercenary personalities, the range of items and ways you can enhance them, and the deeply strategic turn based battles --it is a truly top flight game.
I tend to like any game where the GAMEPLAY just pulls me in. Be it 3d, 2d 1st person, 3rd person, party based, single or whatever. For example, I'd say that the my top 3 games over last 5 years have been: Wizardy 8, Gothic, and Jagged Alliance 2. 2 of these are party based and turn based. The other is single player and 'action oriented". All three perspectives are represented: 1st person 3D (Wiz 8 ), 3rd person 3D (Gothic) and 3rd person Isometric (JA2). The thing that links all of these games together is their attention to detail and outstanding gameplay qualities.
I'm not going to lie and say graphics don't matter at all. They are part of the presentation and DO add to the expereince. Like in real life, looking good will get your "foot in door" as far as meeting people. But if you want to truly go deeper and get something lasting -- there has to be some substance as well. Add some outstanding gameplay or story elements to those graphics and truly have a winner (see: Gothic, Gothic 2).
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:41 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I seriously CAN NOT understand why some want turn based over pause-and-play like in Baldur's Gate. The pause-and-play style is more flexible and swifter, while turn based is something old and slow.
I prefer party-based RPGs over single player, and thus isometric over first-person. You can have party-based and first person, but that would be like the dreaded Sacrifice, which was nothing but nice graphics but annoying gameplay.
Gameplay is so nit-picky. Small features can have huge effects. Look at Arx Fatalis. At first glance is a pretty cool looking first-person view RPG. You have nice graphics and a good inventory. But then they've added annoying and completely useless stuff like eating and using your mouse to cast magic/hack and slash. And, of course, removed ANY dialogue-options. This ruined the game for me.
Then you have a game like Morrowind (I won't say Daggerfall), which also s a cool looking first-person view RPG at first glance. But WITH dialogue-options, a more sophisticated fighting and magic system.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 3:56 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I seriously CAN NOT understand why some want turn based over pause-and-play like in Baldur's Gate. The pause-and-play style is more flexible and swifter, while turn based is something old and slow.
I have no beef wtih Pause and Play systems. In fact, they can be downright exciting sometimes. Hell, I had lots of fun with Baldur's Gate 2 and the Ice Wind Dale games. On the other hand, I won't knock a game cause its turn based. Maybe its because I am a bit older and started playing CRPGs when everything was turn based (Bard's Tale, early Ultimas, Wasteland, etc).
Actually I guess if you configure auto-pause in the Infinty Games to the max level, it almost becomes "turn based". That was a bit too much for me. I simply auto-passed when either a target was destroyed or my weapon had "no effect" (gosh, I hated that Minsc voice).
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sun Jul 27, 2003 4:12 pm |
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