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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Hey, on this point at least we can agree. That they did not include door bashing and chest-smashing was indeed a bad, bad, bad design decision. I fully agree.
Hey, agreeing is boring  |
Fri Jun 14, 2002 4:07 pm |
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Krogon
Guest
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Early on went I started playing Morrowind I was playing a Nightblade who was only level 1 and very weak. I got lost and was going through some canyon trying to sneak my way through because of the two Cliff Racers above. I noticed as I was walking my character was moving his head upward to the right. I though it was somekind of random animation, but No he was looking at the Cliff Racer. Very cool. As I continued on I was just in amazement as how my characters would turn his head to watch every moving creature it came upon. Something simple but I have never seen it in a game before. Very immersive.
Walking on water very cool. The guy falling out of the sky because he can't control his fall with the new spell he developed. The many many different qwest, some short some longer. Just some more of the things I enjoy about the game. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 4:23 pm |
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eraser
Guest
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I really can't get over the teeny bopper aspect of the game myself. I have the same feeling about Morrowind after a month of play as I had went I walked out of Star Wars Attack of the Clones... Why did they water this down for kids?!?
I guess it is all about money for the developers, though. When I read in an interview that the devs would not include ANY children in the game "because we don't want to theplayer to be able to kill children". Why not? Do they think that it will encourage people to kill children in real life? Not likely.
More likely is the fact that they purposedly set out to obtain a TEEN rating for the game; in fact, they declared this fact pretty early on.
And that is one of the biggest differences between Gothic and Morrowind. Bethesda allowed the ESRB rating system to dictate what content their game would contain. Gothic, on the other hand, made the game they wanted to and never even thought about the ESRB board.
I was travelling in the world of Morrowind and came across a "red light" district in one of the towns. I went into an "entertainment tavern" and found fully dressed "acrobats" dancing for the patrons (which were all standing, of course. At this point, I literally turned off the computer and left the game. Am I suppose to "imagine" that this is a seedy red light district although all on screen indicators state that it would be more in tune with a children's pizza parlor?
In another interview in one of the major American gaming magazines, Todd (the Bethesda dev) said that they would not make a game that had any nudity or revealing dress "because it just looks too real". He further went on to explain that if nudity was included in the game, that it would be rated X and could not be sold in any American stores. Again, this "rating system" seems to constantly govern game content and the developers were obsessed with getting this TEEN rating.
And it shows. A lot of this, I am sure, has to do with the console release also. Bethesda was going for the greatest demographic satuation they could possible obtain, which included everything from small children to adults, and they wanted this game out on multiple platforms. The dollar signs were cha-chinging in their eyes obscuring any hope of clear definitive game design.
The end result is a mess. Morrowind is unbalanced and extremely bland. The NPCs are completely lifeless, and given the fact that the writers were unhealthily obsessed with not offeneding ANYONE, the NPCs are boring and tedious. Nothing ever interesting happens in this game... EVER.
Yes, I find a "damsel in distress" that has fallen madly in love with a romantic bandit and wants me to find this charming villian for her. This is in tune with a children's fairy tale and makes me sick. Is this Sunday night with Walt Disney? I thought Morrowind was suppose to be a completely desolate and disparring landscape! Woudl it not be more interesting to find an NPC that was battered and bloody and was crying of rape. That would both stir emotion and anger and make the player WANT to extract revenge. But silly whimsical quest that are designed for younger children makes Morrowind seem merry and cheerful and not intimidating at all.
And while the graphics are good, they get old quickly. I get sick of looking at dead trees and rock all the time. I would have enjoyed more rolling hills of grass his huge flowering trees occassionally. All the landscape starts to look slightly Disney-esque after a while and fake dreariness just gets repetitive.
I have shelved the game now after little more than a month of play. Morrowind a kiddie game that had little direction or balance and grows incredibly tedious after only a short time period of play. The quests and gameworld are designed for younger children and I doubt adult role players will find anything to hold there attention for very long.
I am looking forward to Gothic 2. It will be refreshing to play an RPG from developers that do not sit down to pee. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 5:15 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
Maybe they are mostly in my mind, but so what, if its fun, huh?
Thank you, Ghan, this has essentially been my (and other's) point all along. It IS mostly in your mind. The game manufacturer gave us a lot of very pretty graphics - and you HAVE to do the rest.
No Mr. Nipps, that is not quite what I am saying (as you know quite well, I suppose), but I am tiring of this discussion, so I guess I will let it go with this. At least I will try. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:25 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
This is getting better and better. First this discussion was about whether the glass is half full or half empty and what does it all mean in the cosmic relation to all things. Now it moved on to debating which is better form of entertainment, books or movies.
I can't wait what'll happen on page 14.
P.S. (kindda directed at nipps, but...) if you approach a computer simulation, especially of real life, in this day and age, with pre-formed expectations, you are bound to be met with disappointments. Sooner you accept that, sooner you'll be happy.  If one were to approach this particular simulation with no expectations and play with the cards dealt them... but then I'm getting into book vs movie vs oral presentation vs... so I'll drop it.
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 7:43 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
P.S. (kindda directed at nipps, but...) if you approach a computer simulation, especially of real life, in this day and age, with pre-formed expectations, you are bound to be met with disappointments. Sooner you accept that, sooner you'll be happy. If one were to approach this particular simulation with no expectations and play with the cards dealt them... but then I'm getting into book vs movie vs oral presentation vs... so I'll drop it.
Ah, I see, so I suppose you buy your automobiles and television sets and stereo systems and cameras, etc., etc. with the same LACK of expectations? Of course you don't. You expect (particularly in something of it's category that purports to be very high quality which this game does) that product to present itself with virtually all of the major features of that product AND these should all be roughly state of the art in functionality. You do NOT expect to have to use your imagination to fill in the blanks (you will not expect to use your imagination that the remote control has on/off and volume control and channel changing, etc. while you get out of your chair to change channels on your brand new, high quality TV system).
That is why I am disappointed in this game. It does not have a variety of functionality it should have - this based on what other games have accomplished and what state of the art in gaming is today.
As a simulation of reality the CRPG must do as much as it can (within the constraints of technology of the day). This game does not do that at all - it deliberately falls way short in any number of categories - leaving the player to fill in the blanks with him imagination while the game itself simply does not perform or performs poorly.
I expect to be able to manipulate (pick up, put down, throw, break at a minimum) virtually all objects in the game. This one stops WAY short.
My axe (or sword) should be able to inflict damage to everything in the game that an axe could logically do so in real life.
I expect NPCs to have some sort of routine - all of them. Yes there will be limits - but the NPCs in this game again have virtually NO routines. No bedtime, nothing. Some have fairly restricted walking patterns (that have no meaning whatsoever) and we are supposed to call that state of the art?
I expect the world simulation to make more sense in terms of where creatures are found - the same creatures inhabit virtually all of the terrain from the highest mountains to the lowest lowlands. That is NOT state of the art in creature simulation.
Creature AI is nonexistant by the standards of what can be done today, has been done in other games and what should be done. I should not have to use my imagination to make some creatures appear different - they should be act differently.
NPCs should act in a reasonable manner when actions are taken, events happen, etc. Again, I recognize there must be some limits, but this game takes it to the limit (the negative limit). NPCs great you in virtually the same manner before and after a quest have been completed. What NPCs say via audio frequently do not match their scripted written discourse. NPCs rarely (if ever) do anything differently in response to quests performed. Again, I should NOT have to use my imagination - this is just proper scripting not being performed by the designers.
The weather is pretty - I will give you that. However, in a simulation it not only should be pretty but should matter in some meaningful way. A simulation is really only a simulation if there is something functional that is simulated. Pretty is nice - but it should be more in a CRPG simulation otherwise the time, money and computing power of our computers are being wasted. In this game, weather is just that - pretty window dressing. I like it - do not get me wrong - but I expect MORE of the weather simulation in a top of the line, state of the art CRPG simulation of weather.
I could go on - but hopefully you get the idea. This game is NOT worth of a 10 or even a 9.7 - those values should be limited to those games that truly hit or pushed the state of the art. Just because it likely did that in the graphics department simply isn't enough. Pretty graphics does not define a computer simulation which is what to a large extent a CRPG is supposed to be.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:36 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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I want my car to be able to go from 0 to 60 in five seconds, just for the rush. I want it to have lots of seats so I can carry all my friends with me. I also want it to be big enough to haul furniture or big-screen TVs in it when I get something new at the store. And it should get really good gas mileage. It should be really sporty looking, with a flashy bright-colored paint job that doesn't show up dirt and doesn't attract ticket-happy policemen. Oh, and it should be very safe also; no lightweight tinfoil bombs for me. And did I mention reliable, and easy to repair, and inexpensive?
It would be really cool if I could get one that flew too, as long as it didn't have wings (wings on a car just don't fit right, and the parking would be abyssmal), but I don't think the technology is quite there yet.
I think the car I have now rates about a 2 out of 10, but only because it gets pretty good gas mileage. It doesn't show much dirt either, but that could just be because I never wash it and can't actually see the paint.
That's my automotive wish list.
Garon |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:10 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Garon
I want my car to be able to go from 0 to 60 in five seconds, just for the rush. I want it to have lots of seats so I can carry all my friends with me. I also want it to be big enough to haul furniture or big-screen TVs in it when I get something new at the store. And it should get really good gas mileage. It should be really sporty looking, with a flashy bright-colored paint job that doesn't show up dirt and doesn't attract ticket-happy policemen. Oh, and it should be very safe also; no lightweight tinfoil bombs for me. And did I mention reliable, and easy to repair, and inexpensive?
It would be really cool if I could get one that flew too, as long as it didn't have wings (wings on a car just don't fit right, and the parking would be abyssmal), but I don't think the technology is quite there yet.
I think the car I have now rates about a 2 out of 10, but only because it gets pretty good gas mileage. It doesn't show much dirt either, but that could just be because I never wash it and can't actually see the paint.
That's my automotive wish list.
Garon
It is always delightful when one is presented with intelligent, well thought out repartee such as this.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:17 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Garon
I want my car to be able to go from 0 to 60 in five seconds, just for the rush. I want it to have lots of seats so I can carry all my friends with me. I also want it to be big enough to haul furniture or big-screen TVs in it when I get something new at the store. And it should get really good gas mileage. It should be really sporty looking, with a flashy bright-colored paint job that doesn't show up dirt and doesn't attract ticket-happy policemen. Oh, and it should be very safe also; no lightweight tinfoil bombs for me. And did I mention reliable, and easy to repair, and inexpensive?
It would be really cool if I could get one that flew too, as long as it didn't have wings (wings on a car just don't fit right, and the parking would be abyssmal), but I don't think the technology is quite there yet.
I think the car I have now rates about a 2 out of 10, but only because it gets pretty good gas mileage. It doesn't show much dirt either, but that could just be because I never wash it and can't actually see the paint.
That's my automotive wish list.
Garon
:-]] |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:20 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
Nipps... I'm very sorry to say this, but I've read first two paragraphs of your post and have skipped to the last. I really don't do that usually, but I'm starting to feel like I'm trying to talk to a broken record player here.
I'm talking about a real life simulation here. And you promptly procede to argue with me that yes, of course you should have expectations about it, after all it's just like buying a car. Buying a car, which has several tens (perhaps hundreds) of mechanical parts. Some simple electronics. And a manifacturing history of about 100 years. You compare that to a piece of code, which is a compound of approximately few million precise logical statements, any of which can go wrong and mess up just about the operation of the whole conglomeration, that is attempting to simulate real life! BTW, manifacturing industry of such code conglomerations is about -5 years. In other words, it will not exist for at least another 5 years. The whole business of software development is only 30-40 years old.
Garon attempted to point this out very nicely by using an analogy of a flying car. There actually are cars today, that can fly. But when you go into your local Jeep dealership, do you go in with expectations of your next car being able to fly? Well, you should. It is perfectly normal to expect a transportation vehicle to fly in this day and age. But you don't. Why? Because you know you would be disappointed if you expected that from your next car. So then why do you expect for your next software to act like god? I mean, where do you find the courage to expect such things from the software you buy for $50? They build multi-billion dollar computers just to be able to simulate one cubic inch of an actual real life world. And you expect a $50 piece of s/w to simulate a whole world for you, realistically, in real time, with intelligent creatures that can entertain you for as long as you so desire.
Oh, and while I'm ranting (or trolling as some around here would say), about people that toss the expression "AI" around like it's just another passing fad. Let me tell you something... I went to school for years to become an "expert" in AI. In order to do that, I had to get a degree in Computer Science, Cognitive Science and a minor in Psychology. And what did all that teach me? That we know shit about intelligence (pardon my french). You want better pathing for your NPCs? Why don't you try and write some? If nothing else, try and explain in plain english how to do it and I'll write it for you. Happily. I'll even let you get full credit for the Nobel Prize you get for it. Some of the greatest brains of the last century spent their entire lives trying to find the solution to this. Trust me when I say, it's not just a matter of lazy developers that concentrated on "other" things too much.
So please people. Stop throwing the damn expressions around like it was peanuts. People don't just sit down and write few million lines of code and then just sit down some more and "fix" it some other way. You don't write simulations of real life like you bake a cake. Just because you can imagine how something would look cool, doesn't mean it can be done. Period. If you think it can, then go ahead and do it. If you can't, then please keep your "opinions" about it to yourself. Everybody can be a living room coach and know how easily it is to score goals from your living room sofa. But unless you can step onto that field or into that rink, your "opinion" doesn't count for much.
But I digress... Take my above "opinion" any way you want. If you wanna be offended, go right ahead. If you wanna actually give it credence and learn something, be my guest. But I had enough ranting for a while so I won't really continue this debate.
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:39 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
So please people. Stop throwing the damn expressions around like it was peanuts. People don't just sit down and write few million lines of code and then just sit down some more and "fix" it some other way. You don't write simulations of real life like you bake a cake. Just because you can imagine how something would look cool, doesn't mean it can be done. Period. If you think it can, then go ahead and do it. If you can't, then please keep your "opinions" about it to yourself. Everybody can be a living room coach and know how easily it is to score goals from your living room sofa. But unless you can step onto that field or into that rink, your "opinion" doesn't count for much.
But I digress... Take my above "opinion" any way you want. If you wanna be offended, go right ahead. If you wanna actually give it credence and learn something, be my guest. But I had enough ranting for a while so I won't really continue this debate.
The difference here is that I am NOT asking for anything that will only be state of the art in 5000 years. Other games HAVE done all that I am talking about - that means that these things CAN be done because they HAVE been done. I am not asking for pie in the sky. Further - if you cannot cook get out of the kitchen. The designers said they COULD write code and debug it and test it - thus they are expected to be able to do it.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 9:59 pm |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
quote:
I want my car to be able to go from 0 to 60 in five seconds, just for the rush. I want it to have lots of seats so I can carry all my friends with me. I also want it to be big enough to haul furniture or big-screen TVs in it when I get something new at the store. And it should get really good gas mileage. It should be really sporty looking, with a flashy bright-colored paint job that doesn't show up dirt and doesn't attract ticket-happy policemen. Oh, and it should be very safe also; no lightweight tinfoil bombs for me. And did I mention reliable, and easy to repair, and inexpensive?
It would be really cool if I could get one that flew too, as long as it didn't have wings (wings on a car just don't fit right, and the parking would be abyssmal), but I don't think the technology is quite there yet.
I think the car I have now rates about a 2 out of 10, but only because it gets pretty good gas mileage. It doesn't show much dirt either, but that could just be because I never wash it and can't actually see the paint.
That's my automotive wish list.
Garon
It's always funny when someone doesn't have any type of response to what is being discussed so they just throw some garbage out into the thread. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:02 pm |
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bman
Guest
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As a software developer, I actually rather like the car analogy...
It is my professional opinion that morrowind is a masterful (not perfect) work.
In my opinion, to make morrowind what you guys want would have been unrealistic for them at this point, at least without sacrificing the size.
I could be wrong, are any of the people disappointed in MW software developers? |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:11 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Llama
It's always funny when someone doesn't have any type of response to what is being discussed so they just throw some garbage out into the thread.
I'm not surprised that it went over your head, Llama, but I'm sort of bored with talking with you.
If someone else wants to explain it to you, though, I won't mind.
See ya,
Garon |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:20 pm |
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Garon
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
Garon attempted to point this out very nicely by using an analogy of a flying car.
Who? Me? I just heard someone talking about cars and thought that was neat.
Garon |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:28 pm |
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