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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
*hands Scribelus a reality check*
Go cash it, you need it. If the west didn't have the biggest guns in the world, then you wouldn't be enjoying democracy right now. By owning a gun, I am excerising my freedom and right to bear arms. I'll continue to own a gun and cast my vote for freedom.
Btw, what was the point of the last part of your post? It has no place in this thread. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
Thu May 06, 2004 7:04 pm |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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Ha ha, yes I was worried I wasn't making myself very clear. By all means, exercise your right to bear arms, I was speaking for my own emotional reaction. Personally I prefer to trust that I will never need a gun in self-defence, and I dare say that will always be the case given the very peaceful environment I live in. If I moved to Mogadishu it might be a different story.
I am not a "pacifist"  My dad was in the Air Force, I am interested in military history (especially WWII and Vietnam), I am quite aware of the need to defend democracy!  I spend hours a day defending freedom through the use of arms (in video games, of course).
To me, one characteristic of Western society is that you don't need to be powerful and have force at your disposal in order to be safe and happy. In previous societies everyone pretty much HAD to carry a sword or something, unless they were a peasant and didn't have the right to.
I don't enjoy democracy because the West "owns guns". I enjoy democracy because countries like the United States and Britain believed in democracy and had the miltary/industrial capacity to defend it. It's weird to say a country "owns guns". Can a country own anything? The military is part of the country, not something the country owns. I get the feeling you use that phrase so that it sounds like private gun ownership is somehow related to the defence of democracy. Instead, it is a choice made possible by the fact of democracy, and removing it might be undemocratic. A subtle distinction.
(EDIT: Reading back, I see you think that private gun ownership may prevent government oppression, as outlined in the Constitution. I'll agree this may be possible, but it is not the reason I enjoy democracy, unless you are referring specifically to the American War of Independence.)
I put in the last part because Kayla, Piln and Goshuto were discussing the Bible and amendments. I thought Kayla (and others) might get a laugh out of it. Sorry if I offended you. |
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Fri May 07, 2004 4:07 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
I am not a "pacifist"
Good. Because most of the world's problems will never be solved with "good vibes". 
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
I enjoy democracy because countries like the United States and Britain believed in democracy and had the miltary/industrial capacity to defend it.
And what's a big part of our military might? Guns.
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
It's weird to say a country "owns guns". Can a country own anything?
Do you honestly think the government doesn't stamp "U.S. Property" on a lot of it's military equipment?
Seems plain enough to me that they claim to own that gun! And that's not even a big one.
Btw, what I said was: "If the west didn't have the biggest guns in the world, then you wouldn't be enjoying democracy right now." I don't see the word "own" in that sentance, but I can work with it as you can see. 
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
Sorry if I offended you.
You didn't offend me. I was just wondering why you felt the need to post that.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Fri May 07, 2004 10:15 pm |
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Scribelus
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 08 Apr 2004
Posts: 46
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Sorry for misquoting...
quote:
Originally posted by Val
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
I enjoy democracy because countries like the United States and Britain believed in democracy and had the miltary/industrial capacity to defend it.
And what's a big part of our military might? Guns.
Yeah, but I don't think you can equate private gun ownership with the defence of the nation so easily, if that's what you were doing (a bit hard to tell).
quote:
Originally posted by Val
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
I am not a "pacifist" :rplaugh:
Good. Because most of the world's problems will never be solved with "good vibes". :P .
I think my politics used to be FAIRLY normal, but these days I feel like people see me as a communist anarchist terrorist pacifist.
I have these kind of old fashioned (?) beliefs
(1) Fiscal conservative, but I think the State can regulate areas where there is a market failure (due to difficulty to make a profit, or natural monopoly) in areas that are vital to the health of society (such as justice/education/health), though balanced budgets are a priority
(2) Social liberal, to a reasonable extent
(3) Maximum possible freedom of the press, especially in the face of government/corporate pressure
(4) Separation of Church and State (the best guarantee of religious freedom for everyone)
(5) Diplomacy works better than force, but force is always a possibility
(6) Israel has every right to exist and prosper, but it should pull back to the 1967 borders so it can control its borders more effectively. Don't believe in increasing borders to the "biblical state of Israel", whatever that is.
(7) As much possible transparency, honesty, and open communication regarding the internal affairs of business and government
(8) The biggest problem in the world right now is the misery for millions in poor countries, and it is in everyone's interest to help if possible.
(9) Immigration should be reasonably liberal in order that Western values get spread to other countries, but we should try to ensure that immigrants are educated in our values.
There are lots of Republicans I like (David Brooks for example), but people like Rumsfeld with his "international law can go to hell" attitude send shivers up my spine. I wish they would go back to the old "Grand Old Party" of Abraham Lincoln. |
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Sat May 08, 2004 10:03 am |
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Coffin Joe
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Hill House |
No guns here, although I have no qualms over gun ownership.
I just have a small collection of knives. I have a love for push daggers. |
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Sun May 09, 2004 2:15 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Scribelus
Yeah, but I don't think you can equate private gun ownership with the defence of the nation so easily, if that's what you were doing (a bit hard to tell).
Tell me, would you want to attack a country whose general populace was armed (sometimes better than normal soldiers)?
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu May 13, 2004 7:00 pm |
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NidPuterGuy
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 237
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Because one of these days the rest of the country might decide to take out the trash.  |
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Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:37 am |
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Conan The Librarian
City Guard
Joined: 27 May 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Merry Olde England |
[quote="Iron Man"]The sword discussion made me wonder (for some strange reason), how many of you own a gun? And if so, what is it? Now, I don't own a gun, but I get to shoot a rifle in the cadets. This is the L98 A1 or the Cadet GP. One of the variants of the SA 80 
/l86a1.jpg[/img][/Also, later on in the year, once I complete the course, I will be able to fire something a bit more beefy. The LSW or the light support weapon. Should be a laugh.
Yes, it should be, in Jane's Guns Recognition Guide the author could not even classify it as a LMG. Which is the whole reason behind the squad automatic weapon. Hehehe. Should of stuck with the good old Bren. Though the British Army has been buying SAW 249's.
I don't actually own a gun and wouldn't want to. I hear too many incidents of people accidently shooting themselves or how relatives are mistaken for would be burglars. Though in the UK if you shot a real burglar in self defence nowadays, you probably end up charged with murder. It's funny old world.
_________________
The optimist sees the doughnut.
But the pessimist sees the hole. |
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Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:59 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by NidPuterGuy
Because one of these days the rest of the country might decide to take out the trash.
If you were trying to be funny, you weren't. I suggest you don't try being funny again.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:08 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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@Val
I know that I am responding to the thread late, but I have to say that I agree with you on the importance of personal gun ownership. People and nations are less likely to invade places where the average person is armed. Even if they do invade, the treatment of the people by the resident controlling party is affected by the degree that the average man is armed.
There are many instances in history where one group of people is mistreated by another group of people because the weaker group is unarmed. It is my understanding that the Jews were not armed before the holocaust. Slavery would not have happened had the average West African owned a firearm. People should not have to use firearms but the reality is that we do. If your whole country is unarmed or significantly lesser armed, then eventually your country is going to suffer at the hand of another.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:26 pm |
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NidPuterGuy
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 237
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My last post was kinda directed to you.. Basicly I'm tired of religion and politics mixing. I support gun ownership as it in theory keeps a country free. But I'm tired of every religion, Mormons included, pushing their religious views on everyone else. Makes me crazy sometimes. What happens when a religion that you aren't part of takes power in your country? Not that pertains directly to this thread but.. Anyways, I'll be voting Kerry this fall as bush is leading us down the path to armeggedon.
P.S. Don't claim to spell perfectly.. |
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Tue Jun 15, 2004 4:44 am |
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Patriot
Small Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2004
Posts: 1421
Location: Athens,Greece |
Well when you say firearms do you also meen airguns.Not those plastic things I mean real airguns.  |
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Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:25 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Darrius Cole
If your whole country is unarmed or significantly lesser armed, then eventually your country is going to suffer at the hand of another.
Hmmm... any evidence to back this up? Not wanting to be argumentative, but I don't think the above statement is necessarily true. For one example, compare the US and UK right now. Of the two, the US is, relatively speaking, armed to the teeth, yet its suffering at the hands of others in recent years has been far, far worse. Additionally, despite being armed, didn't US citizens allow their country to be taken over by a non-elected leader? And wouldn't an invading force simply consider armed civilians as viable targets and drop bombs on them? After all, US and UK forces have bombed plenty of unarmed civilians; I find it highly unlikely that any invader on US soil would think twice about obliterating what is, after all, an armed threat. |
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Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:14 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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You think the UK is relatively unarmed?
The UK invaded many other nations in its long history. How many of them were as well armed as the UK was? The holocaust and slavery have ample evidence to support those points. To invade you have to eventually occupy the ground which is where individual firearms become important.
George W. Bush was elected. In the US, the President is elected by the Electoral College which is sort of a weighted average of the population based on the states, not by the simple popular vote. I do however, think that some foul-play went on if Florida, but I have no tangible evidence to support that. But no one or system is perfect.
The U.K. did got to war in Iraq even the the vast majority of British citizens (Is it proper to use the term 'Brits') were against the war.
P.S. I read somewhere that the Prime Minister is not the Commander-In-Chief of British military forces. Is that correct? If it is correct, then who is?
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:19 pm |
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