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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by elkston
Dependable, polished, fun.
Cool! Those are three words that can best describe all Infinity series games, not only IWD. It's the best slogan IMO. Very cool.
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:56 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
PS:T hands down for me.
I thoroughly enjoyed BG2 and clearly Bioware set out to improve on the successes of BG - but this in turn makes it a little dull IMO. FR is a rich setting but rather cliche, the condensing of wilderness areas took away a little of the sense of exploration, combat was too reliant on countering magic protections and many of the characters were dull other than the reprise of Minsc and a couple of others.
And I never liked Imoen that much. That made the whole motivation a bit weak.
PS:T is a piece of art. I love the twisted, unpredictable setting and characters were wonderfully realised. I remember walking away from playing for an hour after the scenes with Trias just to contemplate the excellent character and his motivations. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:04 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
And I never liked Imoen that much. That made the whole motivation a bit weak.
Neither did I  In fact I looked at this saving the girl thing as at ordinary quest - I have to do it, because... well... it is important. In fact after saving her, I did not take her in my party. Maybe because I just hated her "paper doll" in BG2. Definitely a step back in comparison with BG1  My character's motivation was to finally get to the bottom (  ) of this Bhaal story.
But I see your point, Dhruin, and generally I agree with you. P:T does a great job in explaining you why on earth you're doing hte crazy thing you're doing.s
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 4:35 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I find it pretty funny when people mention the whole "Oh, the charectorz ins teh PS:T si so fleshed out, ya?" Even though, BG 2 had like twice the ammount of party-NPC, each with background and goals, plus of course, more varied romances and such, than in PS:T.
I'm also pretty sure, that there were more dialogue scripts and party-talking in BG 2 than in PS:T, in which the party members basically repeated the same thing over and over. Annah must've asked Morte how he lost his body like 50+ times before I finished the game. So please stop this whole "Ohziez, the party characters must've been more fleshed out and funneh in Planescape, because that's basically the only thing PS:T got!".
Honestly, I thought people with moralic problems like Keldorn or Yoshimo were WAY WAY more interesting than some skeleton who hangs out with the main character just "because".
As for this:
quote:
Originally posted by Druhin
the condensing of wilderness areas took away a little of the sense of exploration, combat was too reliant on countering magic protections
How many exploration areas did PS:T have? Not many. How were the combats in PS:T? Oh, THAT'S RIGHT, you basically NEVER used magic! The enemies used what they could among the 10 spells worth anything throughout the entire game, but in the end, it made little differance. The club won. Whereas in BG 2, there were TONS of spells to use, strategy was increased greatly, and even though you had lvl 7+ spells you could still find something useful in the lower levels.
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
On the other hand, PS:T is a step closer to the true emotional freedom of the Fallout world. Your character is somewhat "seedy." You hang out with a floating skull that obviously has an agenda. Other group members aren't that much less colourful. From a seductress, to an alien automaton, to a ghost. The world you walk through is mesmerizing, breath-taking, memorable and a challange to explore.
Emotional freedom? How? With the "good, bad or evil" dialogue-options PS:T, much like ANY other RPG, offered? Apperantly so. But wasn't that what you TRIED to attack BG 2 for? Even though the BG 2 options varied on which race or class you played as? Even though BG 2 ALSO gave you variations in terms of charisma and intelligence?
I also loved seeing you try to sneak up a little fed-ex attack on BG 2. Since PS:T was SO memorable, perhaps you remember these quests: "go get my head", "go get me a pint of ale", "go get my chocolate", "go get my sister", "go get my bronze sphere", "go get me lots of money"... and so forth. These are not fed-ex quests?
Whereas in BG 2, we have stuff like the Firkraag quest, or the Trademeet quest.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:51 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
PS:T has its mindless monster bashing also. Minor spoiler follows...........
The dungeon in ratpickers square. The prison was a big big hack fest. The Modron dungeon almost broke me. ext. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 6:08 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Hey, it's my opinion that I enjoyed PS:T more than BG2. Period. I'm not at all surprised that other people see it the other way around and good for them - if they had fun that's all that counts.
Annah asked about Morte too much? Better than Imoen's insipid whining in my opinion. I loved Annah, found Fall from Grace fascinating, Trias blew me away, Morte was funny and his past caught me unawares and way too many others to talk about. I quite liked Jan in BG2 but not too many others spring to mind - they weren't bad but they weren't inspiring.
One of the things I enjoyed in the original BG was the feeling that I was genuinely wandering the Sword Coast, out in the forest, stumbling across something quite by accident. For BG2, they decided to cut 'dead' areas but this removed that feeling for me. I understand why they did it and for most people I'm sure it was the right decision. This isn't applicable for PS:T because the world was so unique that everything was a discovery.
As for PS:T 's combat - I quite enjoyed it and I really liked the diversity in the types of party members. BG2's combat is no doubt better but really, the battles became tedious with the use of Piece Magic etc with so many battles using the same layered magic protections time and time again. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:56 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
I didnt like the way magic was handled in any IE game.
I think it would have been so much easier if your character defaulted to a spell attack such as magic missle, and then when it was used up went to the next spell auto instead of having to pause select the spell and target the thing.
same with neverwinter nights. Who wants to hassle that much to cast spells? |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:24 am |
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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
I'd have to go with planescape. By the time i got round to playing Baldurs gate 2, i'd forgotten the plot from the first one. Although the game does a very good job of being accessable to those who never played thefirst one, i just got the feeling that i couldnt get into it... the characters all start at level 7 and stuff.
Planescape was fantastic. I hope they never make a sequel to tarnish the memory! (Well they can, so long as they have an all new set of characters and don't call it Planescape:Torment 2 - cos that's annoying)
stu xxx |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:06 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It was the vast empty areas of BG1 that turned me off the game. I had to force myself to complete it, really.
In D&D there's nothing I hate more than the DM going "Ok... you break camp and walk. You walk for most of the day, passing a few squirrels and bird. Night comes and you make camp. The next morning you break camp and continue walking until nightfall. You make camp..."
Which is exactly what those big empty areas felt like to me. I much prefer.
"You travel for thirteen days east until at last the orc fortress looms before you. From this distance you can make out dark figures patrolling the walls holding objects you suspect are crossbows. At the base of a fortress a putrid moat can be seen... as you're watching a small being dumps a bucket of some refuse into the moat. A huge tentacle suddenly lashes from the moat and the dying squeals of the being ... likely a goblin... can be heard, along with rough orc laughter. What do you do?"
Go to area, go to action. Pass go. Collect 200 dollars.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:34 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Emotional freedom? How? With the "good, bad or evil" dialogue-options PS:T, much like ANY other RPG, offered? Apperantly so.
I don't know how you go about your role playing, but the rich tapestry of the character's background gave me the freedom to break from the boring, and sometimes even annoying, g/n/e choices of the D&D system. In a way, I could identify with the borderline insanity of my character and feel the turmoil of his moral dilemas. After all, he lived many lives before. Some saintly, some devilish beyond imagination. All of these were like voices in his head, guiding him along. And the best part is, he had a destination. He had a purpose to find his morality. It was one game where picking allignmnet at the beginning of the game did not lock you into a boring mold that you can never hope to break free from. Just because I picked lawful good, does that mean I need to sell my only child into slavory to feed the hungry people of the city? Bleh!
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
But wasn't that what you TRIED to attack BG 2 for? Even though the BG 2 options varied on which race or class you played as? Even though BG 2 ALSO gave you variations in terms of charisma and intelligence?
As I tried to explain above... it's not about the number of options. Or even the quality of those options. It's about the meaningfulness of those options. When I play games like BG2, I frown, way more often than smile, when I'm presented with my dialog options. The character I am role playing, would NEVER be caught dead saying ANY of those things. In other words, despite all the options unless I pick one of the three boring, bland and emotionally and morally devoid stereotipical templates to role play, my character can never be fulfilled or fleshed out. The square peg/round hole thing comes to mind here.
In PS:T, to a degree (and most so in the FO series), your character has room for emotional and moral growth. Even though the choices are generally limited to g/n/e, your character has a colourful past, and as such has to 'find' himself through his actions. BG2 forces you to 'find' your character before you start playing, and then stick to that template unwaveringly. This is what I mean by freedom.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I also loved seeing you try to sneak up a little fed-ex attack on BG 2. [...] These are not fed-ex quests?
Whereas in BG 2, we have stuff like the Firkraag quest, or the Trademeet quest.
Well, since we are talking opinions here, I'll have to pull a trump card. All I remember from BG2 were annoying fedex quests (more or less). Until you mentioned Firkraag, I did not even remember it and Trademeet rings a bell, but I'm not sure which it is. Was that Imoen's castle?
On top of that, no, I do not remember any fedex quests from PS:T. All I remember were things like the dream sequences, trying to forge my own weapons, the war tower, the monk that asks me to retrieve his necklace from the thugs (moral dilemma quest, not a fedex quest), trying to figure out what to do with the damned automaton doll, the skull totem (or whatever that was), etc.
In other words, while meantioning specific parts of BG2 does remind me of them, they certainly weren't memorable enough to stick in my head of their own device.
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
PS:T has its mindless monster bashing also.
Yes, I absolutely agree. After all it WAS a D&D game. The morgue sequences are what lowered the replayability for me by a great deal. But that still doesn't change the fact that the game is, IMHO, quite superior to BG2.
--Edit--
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I quite liked Jan in BG2 but not too many others spring to mind - they weren't bad but they weren't inspiring.
This reminds me of another thing I wanted to say. I don't even remember who Jan was! For that matter, the only BG2 NPCs I recall were Imoen, Jaheira(sp?) and Minsc. I recall those, because every time they opened their mouths, I wanted to kill them first and puke later. The last couple of times I tried playing the game, I left them all in the stinking dungeon to rot! I remember there was supposed to be some girl I'm saving (my sister? friend? who knows/cares?). There was some holier-than-thou buttmuncher of a knight that was so freaking shallow it gave me a headache. There was some dwarf I think. Oh and gnome or some sort of a tinkerer. Bah, that's about all I can recall off the top of my head.
For PS:T, not just do I recall the NPCs but I actually remember their background stories and histories! And every NPC in that game had some sort of a dark side to them. Some sort of a shady past that was not obvious, but rather always gave me a feeling that someone may stab me in the back when I least expect it. Probably because my main character had a dark side that influenced these people in ways I did not know about. That gave the interactions so much texture, at least IMHO.
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:50 pm |
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Managarm
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Morte was funny and his past caught me unawares
This blew me away the first time I read it. I’m trying to do this from memory so I’m just paraphrasing.
Morte’s story to the story girl in the Brothel of Sating Intellectual Lusts
A man stood at a crossroads in the middle of nowhere with no memory of who he was or how he got there.
“What is your third wish?”
The man turned, surprised, to find a djinni floating before him.
“What is your third wish?”
The man simply stood there for awhile, he couldn’t remember making a first or second wish, but neither could he remember his own name or where he came from. After some time he answered, “I wish to know myself.”
“Funny,” the djinni replied, “That was your first wish,” and disappeared. |
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Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:45 pm |
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Desdicado
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 Apr 2002
Posts: 58
Location: Scotland |
It's funny this just came up today, I've just replayed BG1 and am replaying BG2, I've just got to the Drow city now.
I felt like a break and thought what will I play now?, I never completed Planescape when I bought it in 99 as I got stuck and deleted it. At the the time I didn't rate it as there was too much dialogue so I reinstalled it.
The 1st thing that struck me was how bad it looked compared to BG2 so there's no doubt BG2 is a much better looking game.
After a few hours I found it was still as boring as in 99 and so remains the only Black Isle Game I've never completed, (until IWD2 came out which was far too linear). |
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Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:54 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
As said before, its all a matter of oppinion, and it depends what you like in a game.
I personally loved PS:T.
Although I REALY wanted to like Baldurs Gate 1 & 2, and tried to play it many many times, I just stopped from sheer boredom after a couple of days every time.
But obviously you(The original poster) liked BG a lot, so maybe you will hate PS:T.
The main reasons I loved PS:T are:
Amazingly deep and complex characters that you have to work on throughout the whole game just to find out everything about them.
Excellent combat system thats much more satisfying that BG. (Especially when you do criticals & spells).
Amazing detailed world unlike almost all other RPG's (None of this cliched Tolkien stuff).
Excellent and 100% original story unlike any other RPG.
Beautiful graphics (Better than both BG's in my oppinion)
Focussed and linear game world with a little open endendness
The reasons I DIDNT like BG
Very dull repetitive and unsatisfying combat.
Almost all NPC's are very dull and generic.
PC's arent much better.
Storyline wasnt very interesting (Maybe it got better if I stuck with it)
Graphics were way too clean and sterile, made the world feel plastic
Way to freeform gameplay (I like more direction in my games)
One thing I did like a lot about BG though is the co-operative mutiplayer. Thats a lot of fun, but we still got bored eventually.
Note to all the BG fans out there:
This isnt a BG flame, its just my personal oppinion. I dont like the game, and I'm sorry if that offends you.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Mon Sep 22, 2003 1:36 pm |
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Desdicado
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 Apr 2002
Posts: 58
Location: Scotland |
Everyone's entitled to their own opinions Chekote, it would be a dull world if we were all the same.
Interestingly, the points you did and didn't like in BG are exactly the opposite way round for me.
Tolkeinesqe cliches, orcs, magic swords and elves etc, love 'em!
Open ended game play, love it!.
Characters too complex, if I want that I'll read a book.
Being directed where to go and what to do, hate it!. I'll decide!.
The things I disagree about are the story line, excellent in both BG games, but maybe you didn't play long enough?.
NPCs, your relationship with them develops over time and graphics, which I mentioned in a previous post.
So there you go, (you being the original poster), take your pick now you know. |
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Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:08 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
It was the vast empty areas of BG1 that turned me off the game. I had to force myself to complete it, really.
In D&D there's nothing I hate more than the DM going "Ok... you break camp and walk. You walk for most of the day, passing a few squirrels and bird. Night comes and you make camp. The next morning you break camp and continue walking until nightfall. You make camp..."
Which is exactly what those big empty areas felt like to me. I much prefer.
"You travel for thirteen days east until at last the orc fortress looms before you. From this distance you can make out dark figures patrolling the walls holding objects you suspect are crossbows. At the base of a fortress a putrid moat can be seen... as you're watching a small being dumps a bucket of some refuse into the moat. A huge tentacle suddenly lashes from the moat and the dying squeals of the being ... likely a goblin... can be heard, along with rough orc laughter. What do you do?"
Go to area, go to action. Pass go. Collect 200 dollars.
Exactly! I could not have said it better myself Xen. I never got BG2 because of the poor taste left in my mouth by BG1 ... it wasn't a *bad* game, I was just very happy when it was over.
Thusly I have never tried BG2 - but I *Loved* PS:T. Go figure.
_________________
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:32 pm |
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