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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by iplaygames2
Roach, the point I was making was, seems nobody ever wants the US' help on anything. Ever. Nada, zero, zilch. The evil, angry Americans are scum and need to be either wiped from the planet or ignored until they go away.
But wait!!
If there's a disaster abroad, there are people who want nothing more than US dollars flowing into their struggling economies. Well hell, that's a bit ironic, don't you think? I sure do.
But those are different people, with different views. Hell, if people learn only one thing out of the "war on terror", I'd like it to be that minorities do not speak for the majority. There are Americans who hate America - look at Timothy McVeigh - but that doesn't mean that Americans as a whole deserve nothing from, um, Americans. And anyway, are you really saying that if America suddenly had a crisis and Iran or Syria turned around and offered much-needed resources, you'd refuse?
Providing aid to countries in crisis is the responsibility of every nation - don't think America is alone in providing help and support to those in need. Helping your fellow man and relieving pain and suffering shouldn't stop at your own borders - it would be downright inhuman for any nation to stand aside and watch civilians die, even though they could help, just because they lived in a different country.
I don't think there's any doubt that America's involvement in the rest of the world has on the whole been a good thing. There have been occasional screw-ups, but there always are. Just because some people complain about your actions doesn't mean you should pick up your ball and go home.
I would really begin to worry if any presidential candidate started down the isolationist route. That way lies madness.
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Charlie Dobbie
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Fri Apr 02, 2004 8:03 pm |
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iplaygames2
Master of The Realms
Joined: 06 Sep 2001
Posts: 745
Location: Chicago, IL, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
Just because some people complain about your actions doesn't mean you should pick up your ball and go home.
.
Oh no? What about when they string up bodies of your security forces from bridges in their dusty, desert like country? Would you pick up your ball and go home then? What to do in a situation like that?
Do you really think the US, or any country for that matter, should be pumping billions of dollars into a struggling 3rd world nation, when there's people domestically that are starving each day? To whom does your loyalty lie? Your own citizens or those halfway across the planet? The choice is clear to me.
I don't know about you, but if those soldiers that made international headlines were my family or friends, I would damn sure want to head down the 'isolationist' route. Iraq, Iran, or any other country that does that to people who are there to support their recovery...I just don't see why we should even try to help them. If the ones committing the atrocities are the minorities, as you say, then the majority should rise up to prevent such things. Now is the time. When you have an army of combat ready soldiers there, ready to assist you, why not take on the bullies? I think if they want our help, they have to ALLOW us to help them.
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Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:07 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by iplaygames2
[Do you really think the US, or any country for that matter, should be pumping billions of dollars into a struggling 3rd world nation, when there's people domestically that are starving each day? To whom does your loyalty lie? Your own citizens or those halfway across the planet? The choice is clear to me.
I hear what you are saying, and I don't disagree (or agree) with your points. But the part about people starving every day America is just untrue. You have to be really insane and out of it to starve in America. Or be one of those "thrill-seekers" and get lost somewhere. People do not starve in America.
The poorest people in America (or the ones that have the lowest standard of living) are our rural dwellers. The people living in the back hills of Kentucky. The swamps of Lousianna. Or almost anywhere in Montana, Utah, Idaho, the Dakotas, and Alaska. Filthy savage rurals, with sticks, overalls, and yellow teeth. Our urban poor have color TV and cable in their apartments, our urban homeless have it in their shelters. All the other utilities of life are at their disposal. Luxuries to people of most other countries.
I've been to a lot of crap countries and I would much rather be a homeless here, than rich there. Most Americans don't, and will never know how great they have it. When you've seen deep pits filled with unnamed corpeses, donkey drawn carts hauling manure down one of the the countires main roads, all meat has to be cooked extra well done and a rare steak is unheard of, you have no bath tub or toilet in your house or running hot water or electricity, and you have never heard of Star Wars, you are living in poverty and their is a good chance that people in your country are starving. The thing I am the most thankful for, besides having a healthy daughter, is having a daughter born here in America. There is so much food here people have found out that you can eat all you want of it (minus the carbs) and loss the wieght all those years of carb eating put on. Because eating less is a rediculous notion.
Our homeless eat so well that it is illegal to give them day old bread or donuts. Dunkin' Donuts has to through the left over donuts that they would not sell away, even though they are perfectly good. Our homeless eat a hell of a lot better than I did when I was in the field while I was in the army. Hell, they eat better than I did while I was in garisson in the chow hall. Yakasobi, what the hell is that? Grits, I'm civlized, how they hell am I supposed to eat that? etc.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Apr 03, 2004 5:43 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Odd, I haven't noticed anyone with sticks and overalls recently.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 3:07 am |
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iplaygames2
Master of The Realms
Joined: 06 Sep 2001
Posts: 745
Location: Chicago, IL, USA |
Val, I never recall seeing people in the "hills of KY" starving either. They do their own thing, sure. Live off the land in a run down shack, you bet. But they're happy doing it...
How about the poor homeless folks living in Minneapolis? Chicago? New York? Gets mighty cold up here in the wintertime. But I guess we need to make sure all the Iraqi citizens have food, clothes, and shelter. No need to worry about domestic problems.
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 5:27 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I'm from Boston and we have the same winter problems as Chigaco. The old and those too messed up to make it to a shelter freeze to death.
Thats what old people do, they die. Thats what people too messed up or crazy to make it to a shelter do is frezee to death in the winter.
Even if it is apcked and you have to sleep on the floor, a shelter is safety. If you don't go, you don't go.
I never said that people in Kentucky starve, I said that rural dwellers have the lowest standards of living. I specifically mentioned that no one in America starves.
We need to focuse on domestic problems, yes, but the starving problem is gone here. And our homeless have it great compared to most citizens of other countires with a home. What party was it that closed poor houses? We have huge domestic problems here in the US, and its called tree-hugging hippy, bleeding heart liberals that lack the foresight to help in the long run instead of hinder. All we should send to Iraq is the afformentioned liberals and the Iraqis can make blankets out of them. Nice and cozy liberal skin, mmmm.
@Val, yeah huh.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:17 am |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by iplaygames2
Oh no? What about when they string up bodies of your security forces from bridges in their dusty, desert like country? Would you pick up your ball and go home then? What to do in a situation like that?
Well, no. It may seem harsh, but the situation in Iraq is entirely one of the coalition's making. If we hadn't gone in and mixed things up, life in Iraq would have been just as it was before the war. But we decided (for good or for bad) that things had to change, and acted on it. Now we have to finish the job, and that means taking the good with the bad, for as long as it takes.
The question of who exactly these "security forces" are is an interesting one. They're not military, they're civilians - third-party security firms have been set up in Iraq to hire mercenaries for the purposes of keeping paying customers safe. These guys make a lot of money - the risks are high, so the benefits are high, too. After a year's work many of them are retiring, such is the wage they demand.
This doesn't at all justify their deaths or in any way condone them, but you have to understand that they knew the risks and went into things with their eyes open.
Also, it's not "Americans" that are being attacked out there - these people were targetted because they looked western. This is the first time a group of security staff has been treated in this way, but the fact that they were American is much more to do with bad luck, and also the fact that the attacks were near Baghdad, an area controlled by American forces therefore populated by more American companies than anyone else.
The UK is doing very nicely on the mercenary front - near as I can work out, UK security firms' revenue has increased by $1.65 billion, directly as a result of the war. I have no idea how much American security firms are making, and wouldn't like to speculate.
quote:
If the ones committing the atrocities are the minorities, as you say, then the majority should rise up to prevent such things. Now is the time. When you have an army of combat ready soldiers there, ready to assist you, why not take on the bullies? I think if they want our help, they have to ALLOW us to help them.
And the majority is standing up to the bullies! There are many, many Iraqis who are signing up to the new police force, even though they are being targeted by insurgents and can get better money elsewhere. Maybe you remember an attack on Iraqi civilians lining up outside a police station last year? 47 prospective police officers dead. But they still sign up, even though something like 350 officers have been killed in the last year.
(Edit: Damn this simian brain! Apologies, the event was at the beginning of this year, and they were prospective soldiers for the Iraqi army. I think the point is still valid - but if you like I'll come up with a different example.)
They really do want peace, and the majority are working towards it. With our help, they'll make it, too.
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Charlie Dobbie
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Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:42 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Peace is an illusion and one easily dispelled. I think it will average out to one person dead a day for the next 10 years and then I think another dictator will run the country. Probably a dictator chosen by us, the West, like Saddam was.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:30 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I'm from Boston and we have the same winter problems as Chigaco. The old and those too messed up to make it to a shelter freeze to death.
Thats what old people do, they die. Thats what people too messed up or crazy to make it to a shelter do is frezee to death in the winter.
Even if it is apcked and you have to sleep on the floor, a shelter is safety. If you don't go, you don't go.
...
You know, oddly enough, I would hazard a guess the fewer people (per capita) freeze or starve to death today in any western nation than was true anywhere in the world 200 years ago ... heck, make that 100 years ago.
There will always be the fringe of extemely poor, it is just that their plight is so much more pronounced when the numbers are such a small % of the overall total.
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Mon Apr 05, 2004 12:44 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Peace is an illusion and one easily dispelled. I think it will average out to one person dead a day for the next 10 years and then I think another dictator will run the country. Probably a dictator chosen by us, the West, like Saddam was.
Feeling chipper today, are we? 
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:16 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Being optomistic, actually... I'm pretty sure my 10 year average was run way over one dead a day over the past year.
Plus, I had been watching Gundam Wing. Heh. 
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Apr 06, 2004 2:43 pm |
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