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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
| Whats all this about training? |
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I see a lot of threads where people are 'training' their party members to 'be all that they can be' early on.
How is this done, who are the best people to train and what should they be trained in?
Is there someway to train them really fast realy early on or ?... |
Tue May 27, 2003 6:33 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
otter is a master at training, but I can at least give you some direction. Training, in general, is all about increasing your skills with repetition. There are certain places or situations that lend themselves to this sort of thing, but I won't spoil you that much yet. Some examples:
1) mixing lots and lots of potions will boost your alchemy skill without casting a single spell (and make you some money, to boot)
2) casting knock-knock on a difficult lock over and over (you never actually unlock it) will boost your earth realm skill as well as either your mage or alchemy spellbook skill (the points go into whichever skill is higher)
3) use your locks-n-traps specialist on the same lock. Just keep clicking plungers, making sure you never actually get them all. Your L&T skill will go up.
4) pick any non-combat spell (buffs like "enchanted blade" are good choices) and cast it over and over. The skills tied to that spell (divine realm and mage book for "ench blade", for example) will increase.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue May 27, 2003 7:04 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
so, for example, the bank vault (8 slot one) would be a good spot for a KK caster and a T&L guy as long as I dont actually get it open...hmmmm
So then just cast until out of sp and sleep, then rinse and repeat?
So now if I keep casting that KK spell, the spell AND the school associated will grow too, yea?
Also, with alchemists, where is all this free money pouring in from all directions and all these overnight potions getting made? My scout was
basically self-leveling her scout skills, so I decided to put her points into alchemy. She's mid 40s now but I cant seem to mix anything, and the stuff I should be able to mix, I dont have anymore (nothing at my level drops light *anything*). Should I maybe set a point at Branffits and start her there? Not that I want to open my own bank or potion shop, but towards the end Im playing "Lets make a deal" with these vendors to try and get my guys equipped with the uber stuff
(thinks of more examples while waiting for otter to jump in... ) |
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Tue May 27, 2003 7:19 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
so, for example, the bank vault (8 slot one) would be a good spot for a KK caster and a T&L guy as long as I dont actually get it open...hmmmm
Exactly.
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
So then just cast until out of sp and sleep, then rinse and repeat?
So now if I keep casting that KK spell, the spell AND the school associated will grow too, yea?
Yes, although otter will tell you to use mana stones to recharge your spell points (only use two of their three charges, sell them to a merchant, and then buy them right back fully charged).
quote:
Originally posted by Shrapnel
Also, with alchemists, where is all this free money pouring in from all directions and all these overnight potions getting made? My scout was basically self-leveling her scout skills, so I decided to put her points into alchemy. She's mid 40s now but I cant seem to mix anything, and the stuff I should be able to mix, I dont have anymore (nothing at my level drops light *anything*). Should I maybe set a point at Branffits and start her there? Not that I want to open my own bank or potion shop, but towards the end Im playing "Lets make a deal" with these vendors to try and get my guys equipped with the uber stuff
You have to buy the ingredients from merchants to do any mass production. A light heal (100gp) plus a medium heal (200gp) can be mixed to make a heavy you can sell for 400gp, a small profit. The most lucrative mix is making renewal potions. You need an alchemy skill of 50 to do that one, though. Prices vary from merchant to merchant, but you can get nearly 5000gp for one of these on a total investment of maybe 1000gp for all the ingredients. I found the cure light condition potions to be the most common stumbling block to my assembly line. Otter can give you some specifics on taking advantage of the merchants' "8 hour / 24 hour restock" cycles- I never did quite master that.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue May 27, 2003 8:34 pm |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
Bard: play Viola d'Amore by selecting Magic-Use Item while in conversation mode. Play until you pass out, then rest half a second to go again.
Psi or Div book and Mental realm: cast Charm under same conditions as above; for Psi once you get to 30 total, do same with Mindread. Casting at Power Level 1 gets you increases more often than going full power.
Wiz or Alc book and Earth realm: Like DTE sez, once again, PL1 gets increases more often.
L&T goes up easier if you just keep clicking the Inspect (magnifier) on a trapped chest. You can read a book while doing this--the sound will let you know when to click again.
Engineering: The Searchlight is my fave--Detect Secrets runs out so fast, you can use it rather often. If you're resting, wake up every time it goes off, instead of wasting the whole rest period.
Combat: if you get high enough AC, things like Oozites can't hit you, so you can combat them for a long time by healing them (select as target--you can even put Guardian Angel on enemies!)
Stealth: make everyone a Rogue (who's not Ninja or Monk) for Level 5 in the Monastery and let a bunch of Seekers shoot at you from the exterme edge of their range. They'll mostly miss, and do little damage if they hit. Stand by to heal until they get to AC9 or so, then you can even let them go for a few hours (go shopping, take a nap...) and they'll have 100's. Give them all Shields and make sure they've switched to them, and they'll get 80-90 in that skill, as well, by the time they get to 100 in Strealth. (=+10 AC)
_________________
If thousand-year-old family traditions are so important to you, why do you have indoor plumbing and electricity in your family's house? |
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Tue May 27, 2003 9:53 pm |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
To add to otter's list:
Bishop: keep books in order of Wizardry, Alchemy, Divinity, and Psionic (Wizardry will have more skill points than Alchemy, Alchemy will have more skill points than Divinity, etc.) Cast Knock-Knock to raise Wizardry/Earth (Yes, use the bank vault). Cast Heal Wounds to raise Alchemy/Divine (Use the fire at the crash site in Arnika to damage your party by standing in the fire. Cast Heal Wounds repeatly with Shift-M before the first cast resolves until you run out of Divine SPs.) Cast Divine Trap to raise Divinity/Mental. (Use one of the chests at He'Li's.) Cast Mindread to raise Psionics/Mental.
To add to what dteowner wrote: mix the potions one at a time, not in groups to raise Alchemy and Artifacts faster.
Vendor's items are restocked every 24 hours. The new list is generated when you click "the lips" on the vendor. If you save before you talk to the vendor and the vendor did not restock what you were looking for, then reload your save and try again. To get better restocks buy out all of the ammo and either sell it back to them in groups of 100 or store the ammo in a chest somewhere. This frees up the vendor inventory slots and a greater variety of things will usually restock.
[EDIT: I've been playing Wizardry 8 now for a few months now. I have been lurking here for a while and just wanted to say hello to everyone. I would still be considered a newbie as I still have not finished the game yet, so forgive me if what I post is erroneous as most of you have played this game much longer than I have. Also, I would like to say that this is the best, most addictive game that I have ever played before.] |
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Wed May 28, 2003 2:16 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Welcome to the board, _gator!
Your hints are all solid. Feel free to offer more if you see an opening.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed May 28, 2003 4:34 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
Welcome, _gator! Glad you're enjoying Wiz8! You'll find a lot of different ways of handling things, and discover there is no "right" way of running your party.
And just to get some discussion going:
quote:
Originally posted by _gator
Bishop: keep books in order of Wizardry, Alchemy, Divinity, and Psionic (Wizardry will have more skill points than Alchemy, Alchemy will have more skill points than Divinity, etc.)
I found Alchemy the least useful of the spell books. My order would be Wizardry, Divinity, Psionic, Alchemy. My style of play had my bishops develop naturally along these lines, and I kept having to put points into Psi and Alc to have them keep up. But it also depends on what other casters you have in your party - i.e. what are you using your bishop to accomplish.
It has been suggested here, and also by the manual, that the Wizardry and Alchemy spellbooks are closely related, as are the Divinity and Psionics. This could be the influence in your list.
My style of play could also be influenced by my gaming history. I played Wiz 1-5, which only had the "wizardry" and "divinity" (mage/priest) spellbooks, so it could just be my tendency to gravitate towrds those spells. My current party includes a pure alchemist and a pure psionic, and these casters just don't seem to be as good as the mage and priest from my first party were. {Hmm, this could also be because the mage & priest were imports from Wiz7, so they started at level 5.... Maybe the Alc & Psi just still need more time to grow on me.)
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Thu May 29, 2003 2:03 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Given the weakness of offensive magic in Wiz8, the question (IMO) comes down to buffs.
Alch: razor cloak (unique), chameleon, element shield, body of stone (unique)
Mage: ench blade (unique), missle shield (unique), element shield
Priest: bless (unique), guardian angel (unique), armorplate (unique), magic screen (unique), soul shield, superman (unique)
Psionic: chameleon, haste (unique), soul shield
The unique spells for alchemy aren't all that great, although "body of stone" isn't shabby. The mage's unique spells are good (E.B.) and excellent (M.S.). The priest book is the clear winner, which isn't a big surprise since healers have always been about support spells. The psionic book only has one unique spell, but it's a great one to have if the party doesn't have a bard.
So I say it's a good idea to have strength in the priest book. Next, I'd try to cover the mage book. From the above, I'd call alchemy and psionics a tie, but I give third place to the psionic book because it's offensive spells cause conditions rather than raw damage.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Thu May 29, 2003 2:41 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
The one time i went for a "perfect" Bishop (100's and all spells), i mixed my Alchemy up to 30, KK'd it up to 50, then mixed (much faster when you do the CLC-C.Dis-Renew) up to the 90's (it got slower the higher it went) then invested in a Mage level to KK Wiz up into the 80's. (that took RIDICULOUSLY long)
I kept Divine ahead of Psi by using Charm, and kept Psi within a couple points of Div with Mindread. You can train up the Div realm and any of Alc, Psi, or Div book with Healing at the gas coffin in the Monastery, too, and get some points for them that much earlier in the game. (and CLC for Water realm if you get nausea...)
_________________
If thousand-year-old family traditions are so important to you, why do you have indoor plumbing and electricity in your family's house? |
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Thu May 29, 2003 5:46 am |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
otter wrote: "The one time i went for a "perfect" Bishop (100's and all spells)"
Actually my current party is 2 Fighters and 4 Bishops. So I am going for 4 "perfect" Bishops. The Bishops all have Wizardry 95+, Alchemy 85+, Divinity 80+, Psionics 65+, Fire 60+, Water 50+, Air 55+, Earth 100, Mental 100, Divine 100, and Powercast 80+ (working on getting Psionics to 70+ so that I can get the rest of my level 6 spell picks, have to wait until I get to Ferro for level 5 spells). They are all level 14 (enough experience for level 17) and have all of the level 1 through 4 spells (all bought from vendors or found except Mind Read and Holy Water). When they reach level 18, each one will be able to pick level 7 spells (as long as my spellbook + 10% of realm is 90+).
I usually train the Bishops by doing different things, so that I do not get too bored. I will start at the bank vault and train Wizardry up to 50+. Then I will train up Alchemy to 40+ at the crash site. Then I will train up Divinity to 35+ at He'Li's. As the skills go up pretty quickly until 50, then this part was not too boring. I then start a rotation of training:
Go to the bank vault to train Wizardry until I run out of spell points.
Teleport out of vault and camp in the bank doorway (fight any monsters that come along to train skills).
Train Alchemy with the fire at the crash site until I run out of spell points.
Camp in the bank doorway (again fighting monsters that come along).
Go to Braffit's and buy up any Mod Heal/Cure Light Condition potions (and missing spellbooks if you have the cash).
Train Psionics on Braffit with Mindread.
Go to He'Li's and buy up and Mod Heal/Light Heal potions.
Train Divinity on one of the chests at He'Li's. Camp.
Mix Heavy Heals or Renewel depending on Alchemy skill and sell back to He'Li (she gives a better price than Braffit).
Train Psioncs on He'Li with Mindread.
Camp and then cast all buffs.
See if Anna has any spellbooks to buy.
Train Psionics on Anna with Mindread.
Then back to the bank vault.....
Not sure if there is a more efficient/less boring way to do it, but that is what I have come up with so far to train Bishops.
O/T - just wanted to say that one of benefits of having multiple Bishops is that they are totally interchangable. If one Bishop is running low on spell points in a realm, then a different Bishop will cast the spell in that realm. I never rely upon a particular character to cast a needed spell. Plus I can cast the same most effective spell against a group of monsters up to four times (they usually will not last long when I do this). When I run into very magic resistent monsters, then I buff up the fighters (haste, superman, guardian angel) and debuff the monsters (armormelt, insanity, freeze flesh). The Bishops are catching up quickly to the Fighters in kills and will overtake them soon. |
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Fri May 30, 2003 1:58 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
4 bishops and 2 fighters...thats hardcore
Now bishops split the priest and mage spell books yea?
Who else can mindread beside Psionics? It must be a spell cause I checked all the starter skills and no one has it.
Is mindreading worth the skill at any point? (I just came to the conclusion that you dont need a rogue to pick locks so long as you have a Knock Knock and Divine Lock caster (my gadgeteer, who I never put any points into T&L has a 119% rating to pick locks after a Divine spell (I forget the name) |
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Fri May 30, 2003 3:19 pm |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
"Now bishops split the priest and mage spell books yea?"
The way that I train them, all Bishops get all 4 books (Wizardry, Alchemy, Divinity, and Psionics).
"Who else can mindread beside Psionics?"
Mindread is a third level spell and can be learnt by Psionics, Monks, and Bishops (the characters that have the Psionic spellbook).
"Is mindreading worth the skill at any point?"
Each NPC will have about 3 or 4 things that they will say when you cast Mindread. It provides some additional information and clues, but is not necessary for completion of the game. I mainly use it to train Psionics.
"I just came to the conclusion that you dont need a rogue to pick locks"
If you do not have a Rogue, Bard, Gadgeteer, or Ninja (classes that have the Locks & Traps skill), then the most L&T skill you can get is 20 with the Poseur's Cap and the Thieves Buckler. A level 7 Divine Trap will raise that to 76 I believe. So like you said, it is possible to get by without a rogue type character. This character would get any remaining tumblers after a Knock-Knock spell or can disarm traps pretty well with the level 7 Divine Trap. Also Knock-Knock can disarm traps. I have not tried this myself, but the documentation says it can be done. |
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Fri May 30, 2003 3:39 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
Now if your Bishops get all the books, how high are they able to cast, thats a lot of schools to be spreading points around in ( I guess thats where the training comes in)
Whenever I go to the disarm trap and select my mage the spellbook icon never came up (similar to a no spell book icon from my priest when its time to pick a lock)
As for mindreading, I'd like to get it just to get all the history/quest info possible, but if its not going to help me get, like, mission-critical info or secret stuff, then I'll prolly treat it as a novelty and throw it on my ninja as opposed to my bishop |
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Fri May 30, 2003 4:32 pm |
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_gator
High Emperor
Joined: 28 May 2003
Posts: 530
Location: Kentucky |
"Now if your Bishops get all the books, how high are they able to cast, thats a lot of schools to be spreading points around in ( I guess thats where the training comes in)"
I just put a few points into the realms at the beginning so that I am not completely in the read. I add points to the spellbooks also in the beginning as I save all (except for Mind Stab and Holy Water) spell picks for 6th and 7th level spells. Once I start training, I rarely add more points to spellbooks or realms and focus on melee skills.
"Whenever I go to the disarm trap and select my mage the spellbook icon never came up (similar to a no spell book icon from my priest when its time to pick a lock)"
Divine Trap can be cast by someone who has the Divinity or Psionic spellbook. So, no, the spellbook icon will not enable for your Mage when disarming a trap.
Knock-Knock can be cast by someone who has the Wizardry or Alchemy spellbook. Same thing on the icon for your Priest.
"As for mindreading, I'd like to get it just to get all the history/quest info possible, but if its not going to help me get, like, mission-critical info or secret stuff, then I'll prolly treat it as a novelty and throw it on my ninja as opposed to my bishop"
Mindread is only in the Psionic spell book so the Ninja will not be able to use it. Only a Monk, Psionic, or Biship will be able to. Some mission-critical/secret information can be gotten earlier than you normally would have by mindreading (try Kunar sometime), but again is not necessary especially if you ask all NPCs about everything you can. They are a wealth of information. |
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Fri May 30, 2003 4:46 pm |
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