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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Slow down Priest4hire. If you're going to start listing dates then at least get them right. D&D was first published in 1974 true, but we're talking about CRPG's here. The first D&D CRPG was the original Pool of Radiance for the Commodore 64 in 1988. And why do you make it a point to mention the fact that Dragon Quest was released in 1986? Was Dragon Quest the first ever Japanese RPG? Somehow I doubt it was.
Had I been talking about Dungeons and Dragons I would have called it D&D. Don't be so quick to assume I made a dumb spelling mistake and forgot to capitalize my proper nouns. The game dnd is an ASCII based CRPG written for the PLATO system back in 1974. Or it might have been 1975, the dates are a bit sketchy, but it hardly matters. As for Japanese CRPGs before Dragon Quest I simply ask you to name one. As far as I know Dragon Quest is not only the first CRPG written for a console, rather than a port, but it was also the first JRPG.
quote:
You make a lot of valid points with your arguments. Some are not so valid.
I wouldn't go so far as to say JRPG's roots lie in Western civilization just because Richard Garriott may have been the first to use a repeating tile-based graphics engine. Some of the early JRPG's, such as a few of the ones that were made for the original NES, no doubt took some ideas from games like Ultima and Wizardry. I agree with that.
But you're talking about game mechanics. I'm thinking more about feel and atmosphere, in which case Eastern and Western RPG's are quite a bit different.
Where did I ever say anything about Western civilization? Or that JRPGs aren't different than Western CRPG? Consider French cuisine for a moment. Would you consider French cooking to be the same as Italian? Because that's where the roots of modern French cooking can be found. More specifically Catherine de Médicis bringing her chefs with her in 1533. Obviously it's a little more complicated since French Cuisine is more complex. But much of what we think of as classic French cooking derives directly from Italian and Greek cuisine. Does that mean it's the same? Should I thus expect to eat the same food at a Greek restaurant as I do at a French or Italian one?
You seem to have difficulty with the concept of 'built off of' so I'm going to be as clear as I can. Back in the early to mid eighties the CRPG genre was just taking off. Games from the Ultima and Wizardry series were enjoying a great deal of popularity* in Japan. So then comes along Yuji Horii who likes these games but feels that there should be CRPGs of their own rather than just the ones from the West. So he gets together with a famous Manga artist and they create Dragon Quest - a game based on those Western RPGs. This starts of the entire JRPG segment of the RPG world. Thus they built the JRPG genre off the Western RPGs. As in that's where the JRPG genre got started. If I speak mostly of mechanics it's probably because these are games and mechanics is what drives gameplay.
quote:
*Quote*
Western RPGs focus on the characters, and the world around them is a tool to let the player-as-character do and see more. Eastern RPGs focus on the events unfolding around the characters, and how the characters affect the world around them. Western RPGs are based on the experience of tabletop role-playing games, limited only by the imaginations of the players and the game master, where Eastern RPGs are more re-creations of traditional storytelling [End Quote]
I'm also not saying one is superior to the other, although from my previous comments it should be obvious that I prefer Western style.
That quote is far too general and vague. I could easily point out JRPGs that don't match that description (ever play Sorcerian?) or even whole groupings of JRPGs such as the rogue-likes the Japanese make. I'd even argue that the current Western CRPGs are based more off the early CRPGs than the P&P side. Most of what makes P&P games work can't be translated and many of the techniques and style of the CRPGs are based on those developed in the early days. But my point never was to suggest that JRPGs and Western RPGs are the same. I didn't mean this as that type of discussion. I was actually just rebutting the notion that JRPGs as RPGs are a more recent idea or that they are unrelated.
*Not a small point. Wizardy and Ultima were very popular in Japan and Wizardry still is. Ultima Underworld was even ported to the Playstation and there are Wizardry titles on more consoles than any other CRPG series. There is something like 6 Wizardry titles for the Playstation 2.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
Sun Apr 02, 2006 9:17 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
See for myself? See what? Is there supposed to be a link there? You run your mouth and then leave absolutely nothing to show.
How old are you? You've added nothing to this discussion at all other than insults. If you have nothing intelligent to say then don't post.
Okay, let me spell out my point for you: You've repeatedly argued from ignorance (or personal incredulity <- LOOK, A LINK). You've had to do this because you don't know fact one about the history of the CRPG. This places you at a disadvantage in an argument about the history of the CRPG. It means you can only reply with some variation on, "Well I doubt THAT," or, "I have no recollection of THAT." You don't understand that your inability to believe or recall anything doesn't signify anything, because you're an ignoramus.
So why don't you do the intelligent thing and educate yourself? Hit the link in my original post (yes, I did include one - look under "facts") and try to find a single example to support your case. You won't find one, because there isn't one, because you're wrong, but hopefully you'll learn something from the experience and won't stupid up any more threads here. Okay? Super! |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:49 pm |
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odex
Village Dweller
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 17
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Hmm. I seriously do not get the fascination of MMORPGs the writer of this article clearly has, although he says MMOs (the correct term to use would actually be MMOGs), it's clear he's thinking of the MMORPGs. But he is correct though, as far as the once I've tried anyway, which is starting to become a handful, all seem to lack the element of RP.
That is the reason why I'm generally sceptical of these games. I have nothing against MMOGs, but I'm a RPG fan, and I'm just as much a fan, if not more, of the roleplaying aspect and the ability to change the course of the story or world and make an impact on it somehow, as of the combat and character leveling. The interaction with other characters, and the fact that your choices has consequences is what makes it an RPG for me.
What these modern games are often reduced to is virtual chatrooms with simplified combat and leveling.
As I'm sure most of you know, many CRPGs are also reduced to simple hack'n'slash games or dungeon crawlers, but to me it seems this simplifying is even more evident in MMORPGs, most should just be called MMOGs really. As for CRPGs, for me one of the few games to draw out as an example of good interaction would be Baldur's Gate 2.
Developers often use the term persistent game world, one of the definitions of persistent is "insistently repetitive or continuous". Sums up World of Warcraft pretty good don't it?
As for Oblivion, I haven't played it enough to judge it completely yet, but from the reviews I've read, and what gamers are saying on forums, it's no Baldur's Gate 2. It is clearly a game that has been hyped beyond what it can live up to. At least as a roleplaying game, if we're going to have a serious look at it through the eyes of a roleplaying fan like myself. I'm not saying I'm an expert, or I'm who's right, ofcourse not, it's not about that. I'm just saying that there's alot of guys like me out there, that see this game for what it is, and that it's not a savior of western CRPGs. Like many of you here have already said, "I didn't know western CRPGs needed saving."
With that said, Oblivion is a great game, no doubt about it. But the savior of RPGs? You want an honest review? Go read Gamespy's. If Oblivion gets more people turned on to CRPGs and that we because of that will see more games being developed, then great though.
While I do agree that good CRPGs have become increasingly hard to come by, I just don't think this is the savior, I even think games like Neverwinter Nights are far better, and I don't think that roleplaying fans are abandoning singleplayer games for the sake of MMORPGs, because I think the singleplayer experience is still more rewarding and will continue to be so till developers find a way to allow for more roleplaying between players, NPCs and the game world.
Last edited by odex on Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:10 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
See for myself? See what? Is there supposed to be a link there? You run your mouth and then leave absolutely nothing to show.
How old are you? You've added nothing to this discussion at all other than insults. If you have nothing intelligent to say then don't post.
Okay, let me spell out my point for you: You've repeatedly argued from ignorance (or personal incredulity <- LOOK, A LINK). You've had to do this because you don't know fact one about the history of the CRPG. This places you at a disadvantage in an argument about the history of the CRPG. It means you can only reply with some variation on, "Well I doubt THAT," or, "I have no recollection of THAT." You don't understand that your inability to believe or recall anything doesn't signify anything, because you're an ignoramus.
So why don't you do the intelligent thing and educate yourself? Hit the link in my original post (yes, I did include one - look under "facts") and try to find a single example to support your case. You won't find one, because there isn't one, because you're wrong, but hopefully you'll learn something from the experience and won't stupid up any more threads here. Okay? Super!
Checked out your link and, guess what? There is absolutely nothing there that relates to the debate between Priest4hire and myself. A listing of games, the year they were released and the platform? What does that have to do with a discussion about the resurgence of Western RPG's and how much they originally influenced Japanese RPG's?
As far as stupiding up anymore threads is concerned, you're the only one here who has lowered himself to name calling and hurling insults like an angry schoolboy. |
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Sun Apr 02, 2006 11:17 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
Priest4hire, I have no problem understanding the concept of 'built off of'.
The problem seems to be that we each have different concepts to begin with.
I have already agreed with you that some early JRPG's were influenced by Western RPG's. What I don't agree with is the way you seem to think JRPG's would never have come to exist without their Western counterparts. People like Yuji Horii would have made RPG's with or without Ultima and Wizardry. It just so happens that he was a fan of those games and got some of his ideas from them. You want me to name one JPRG that came before Dragon Quest?
Haja no Fuuin was a JPRG on the PC-88 sytem that pre-dates Dragon Quest.
But seriously, there's no way to know how many lesser known JPRG's were released for Japanese gaming systems in the early days and were never ported to other systems or released in other languages.
As far as dnd is concerned, I apologize for confusing that with DnD, but it's a very easy error to understand considering the spelling and the fact that they were both created in 1974. |
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Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:32 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Checked out your link and, guess what? There is absolutely nothing there that relates to the debate between Priest4hire and myself. A listing of games, the year they were released and the platform? What does that have to do with a discussion about the resurgence of Western RPG's and how much they originally influenced Japanese RPG's?
I like this trick. Continually shift the terms of the debate, so when someone tries to pin you down on one point, claim that you've actually spent the whole argument discussing something else. So far, you've asserted the following (and more):
Western RPGs have been strong for at least 5 years
Few Japanese RPGs are rooted in Western culture
Westerners weren't RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan
The roots of the feel and atmosphere of JRPGs lie in Eastern civilization
JRPG's would have come to exist without their Western counterparts
I replied to the middle point, and you could certainly use the link I've provided to back it up, by finding a JRPG that predates Rogue, Akalabeth, Temple of Apshai, and DnD.
quote:
As far as stupiding up anymore threads is concerned, you're the only one here who has lowered himself to name calling and hurling insults like an angry schoolboy.
As though you didn't lead your reply to Priest4hire with "Congratulations!" You're a snide, sarcastic fuck, so get down off the cross. |
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Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:39 am |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
Checked out your link and, guess what? There is absolutely nothing there that relates to the debate between Priest4hire and myself. A listing of games, the year they were released and the platform? What does that have to do with a discussion about the resurgence of Western RPG's and how much they originally influenced Japanese RPG's?
I like this trick. Continually shift the terms of the debate, so when someone tries to pin you down on one point, claim that you've actually spent the whole argument discussing something else. So far, you've asserted the following (and more):
Western RPGs have been strong for at least 5 years
Few Japanese RPGs are rooted in Western culture
Westerners weren't RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan
The roots of the feel and atmosphere of JRPGs lie in Eastern civilization
JRPG's would have come to exist without their Western counterparts
I replied to the middle point, and you could certainly use the link I've provided to back it up, by finding a JRPG that predates Rogue, Akalabeth, Temple of Apshai, and DnD. [End quote]
LOL! You act like that link has a listing of every game ever made. Do you know this to be a fact? I couldn't begin to imagine how many lower profile games are not there. You're missing the point anyways! Just dating a game doesn't mean anything. So game A came out in 1987 and game B came out in 1989. Does this mean that game B only exist because game A was made first? And how does this prove anything about influence??
You accuse me of continually shifting the terms of the debate and then go on to list 5 things that are all connected to the same topic. LOL
quote:
As far as stupiding up anymore threads is concerned, you're the only one here who has lowered himself to name calling and hurling insults like an angry schoolboy.
As though you didn't lead your reply to Priest4hire with "Congratulations!" You're a snide, sarcastic fuck, so get down off the cross.
Mmmm, So being sarcastic is on par with using the F-word now? Keep using that language and you won't be posting here much longer. |
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Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:24 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
LOL!
LOL! For someone so concerned about the maturity of my posts, you sure don't make much of an effort to talk like an adult.
quote:
You act like that link has a listing of every game ever made. Do you know this to be a fact? I couldn't begin to imagine how many lower profile games are not there. You're missing the point anyways! Just dating a game doesn't mean anything. So game A came out in 1987 and game B came out in 1989. Does this mean that game B only exist because game A was made first? And how does this prove anything about influence??
I don't give a damn about who influenced whom. From the beginning, I've focused on one point. To whit:
Priest suggested that Westerners had been playing RPGs long before the Japanese. You replied "Mmmmmm, I would just love to sssee the reasssearch for that, daaaarling." He cited the earliest known Western CRPG, which predates the earliest known JRPG by nearly a decade. You replied by arguing from personal incredulity - a logical fallacy - inventing hypothetical Japanese roguelikes and saying you couldn't imagine that they didn't exist. You failed to meet the burden of proof, which lay on you once Priest came up with Dnd and you couldn't come up with anything better than Miracle Warriors.
Naturally, you won't use the link I've provided to actually substantiate your rebuttal. You couldn't even figure out that you didn't have to limit yourself to that one resource. And you won't reply to what I just wrote, because you can't hold all of it in your head at once. You'll just pick some inane side-issue and attack that instead. Wow, everything on my list relates to the same topic? I can't believe I've wasted this much time on you. |
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Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:32 am |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
LOL!
LOL! For someone so concerned about the maturity of my posts, you sure don't make much of an effort to talk like an adult.
quote:
You act like that link has a listing of every game ever made. Do you know this to be a fact? I couldn't begin to imagine how many lower profile games are not there. You're missing the point anyways! Just dating a game doesn't mean anything. So game A came out in 1987 and game B came out in 1989. Does this mean that game B only exist because game A was made first? And how does this prove anything about influence??
I don't give a damn about who influenced whom. From the beginning, I've focused on one point. To whit:
Priest suggested that Westerners had been playing RPGs long before the Japanese. You replied "Mmmmmm, I would just love to sssee the reasssearch for that, daaaarling." He cited the earliest known Western CRPG, which predates the earliest known JRPG by nearly a decade. You replied by arguing from personal incredulity - a logical fallacy - inventing hypothetical Japanese roguelikes and saying you couldn't imagine that they didn't exist. You failed to meet the burden of proof, which lay on you once Priest came up with Dnd and you couldn't come up with anything better than Miracle Warriors.
Naturally, you won't use the link I've provided to actually substantiate your rebuttal. You couldn't even figure out that you didn't have to limit yourself to that one resource. And you won't reply to what I just wrote, because you can't hold all of it in your head at once. You'll just pick some inane side-issue and attack that instead. Wow, everything on my list relates to the same topic? I can't believe I've wasted this much time on you.
I can't believe it either. You're actually beginning to embarass yourself. I almost feel sorry for you.
Here, lets take a look.
Western RPGs have been strong for at least 5 years
Few Japanese RPGs are rooted in Western culture
Westerners weren't RPG gaming long before anyone in Japan
The roots of the feel and atmosphere of JRPGs lie in Eastern civilization
JRPG's would have come to exist without their Western counterparts
Mmmm, These aren't related. I guess it's coincidence that all five of these sentences have some combination of the words EASTERN, WESTERN, and RPG in them.
And no, I won't use the link you provided to actually substantiate my rebuttal
because there's nothing there that even relates to the debate between Priestforhire and myself. You're so worried about what year game X came out, you seem to have lost sight of the bigger picture. We were debating about ideas and influences. Not just release dates. How's that for an inane side-issue? |
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Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:15 am |
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Arma
Mysterious Lady
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1230
Location: in the middle of hell |
This whole thread is ridiculous, right to the point where somebody, who has not played a single single-player CRPG or a single JRPG names Oblivion as something it is not. Namely, an RPG (I admit I haven't played the game myself and I don't plan to) of any other than an action-RPG i.e a Diablo clone but with prettier graphics and first person view.
On the subject of western vs japanese RPGs, I don't see why or where some people see an argument. Surely they have their differences in terms of both gameplay mechanics and art direction, but they are all RPGs. Anime style and a different way the story is told does not make it worse.
On a personal level I consider the JRPGs I have played to be far better at being role-playing games than their western cousins in recent years. |
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Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:54 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
Well, I'm a little late but I had always meant to reply - I was just lazy. I'm bad when it comes to putting a reply off for a day or two and then having it slip my mind.
quote:
Originally posted by JDR13
The problem seems to be that we each have different concepts to begin with.
I have already agreed with you that some early JRPG's were influenced by Western RPG's. What I don't agree with is the way you seem to think JRPG's would never have come to exist without their Western counterparts. People like Yuji Horii would have made RPG's with or without Ultima and Wizardry. It just so happens that he was a fan of those games and got some of his ideas from them.
I never said they wouldn't exist though I do have to wonder what form they would have taken. You mentioned Haja no Fuuin, aka Miracle Warriors, a game which is very odd and decidedly primitive. Would Dragon Quest have been as developed without the Western CRPGs to draw on? Would the have been designed right off of P&P RPGs? That in turn makes one wonder if you also mean that even had D&D existed to start the RPG genre going that Japanese would have still produced their area of the CRPG genre.
But he got more than a few ideas. Simply comparing Dragon Quest to Ultima III will prove that. For extra insight try the Japanese reworked version of Ultima III on the NES.
quote:
Haja no Fuuin was a JPRG on the PC-88 sytem that pre-dates Dragon Quest.
But seriously, there's no way to know how many lesser known JPRG's were released for Japanese gaming systems in the early days and were never ported to other systems or released in other languages.
You have a date on that? All I was able to dig up was the copyright which put it at '86. Predating Dragon Quest but not by much. Though it does explain why that game is so odd.
You do bring up a really good point that simply being produced earlier does not prove something was an influence. For example, I've never really put forward Phantasie as the origin of the Final Fantasy combat system despite the former being older and the remarkable similarity in said combat. The reason is that the FF combat system is so clearly a 3rd person version of the Wizardry combat system that it seems more likely that's where it came from. It is an obvious solution to implementing the Wizardry combat in the Ultima style 3rd person design.
By the way, while we are talking about the totally Japanese origin of the content of JRPGs I just have to wonder how common cruciform swords and articulated plate armor were in Japan. Had a lot of holy knights there did they? 
quote:
Originally posted by Arma
This whole thread is ridiculous, right to the point where somebody, who has not played a single single-player CRPG or a single JRPG names Oblivion as something it is not. Namely, an RPG (I admit I haven't played the game myself and I don't plan to) of any other than an action-RPG i.e a Diablo clone but with prettier graphics and first person view.
Diablo is a Rogue-like. Oblivion is not. Action/RPGs are not by default Diablo clones of all things. The question of whether it's an action/RPG is not is debatable, but given that you admit to not having played it I don't suppose there's much to say. I'd say that given a totally intact and functional body and mind the action in Oblivion is hardly taxing and is easily outweighed by the stats. But other's mileage may vary. I must confess that my playing of action games may throw off my estimation of the difficulty of the action elements.
quote:
On a personal level I consider the JRPGs I have played to be far better at being role-playing games than their western cousins in recent years.
I don't mean this as a criticism of any kind, but don't you think that statement reveals a great deal more about you than the games in question?
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Sun Apr 30, 2006 12:49 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
[quote="Priest4hire"]
By the way, while we are talking about the totally Japanese origin of the content of JRPGs I just have to wonder how common cruciform swords and articulated plate armor were in Japan. Had a lot of holy knights there did they? ;) *END QUOTE*
Kind of like how the Wizardry series has always had Ninjas and Samurais? |
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Mon May 01, 2006 5:59 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
Exactly. That was back then the whole martial arts/ninja craze was getting going. That was right around the time Conan The Barbarian was using a Japanese sword master to style the sword fights. The Monk class in AD&D is another good example of that - as is the oriental weapons in the Elder Scrolls series. I don't doubt that Eastern influences have creeped into Western CRPGs and have seen many examples of it.
I'd still easily win a point by point comparison of elements, JRPGs are loaded with them, but with most there is no way to know if they got them from CRPGs. Record of Lodoss War obviously borrows from D&D, but it's from the P&P game. Many Western elements are probably present for the same reason we put Eastern elements in our fantasy: it makes it seem more exotic and thus fantastic.
But after looking at the cover of Suikoden 3, how could I resist the jab? 
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Mon May 01, 2006 2:35 pm |
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JDR13
Magister of the Light
Joined: 16 Apr 2002
Posts: 376
Location: Michigan, United States |
I couldn't resist mentioning it though. Considering that the original Wizardry was one of the first crpg's ever made back in 1981. Ultima 1 and Akalbeth are the only games I can think of that came out earlier. |
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Mon May 01, 2006 3:13 pm |
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