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Gaidal Cain
Head Merchant
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 54
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Gothicgothicness: Gothic II was one of my favorite RPG's. There is no question that I liked it, I loved it! I also disagreed with most reviews I read, and most reoccurring criticism of gothic was the combat system, which was in my opinion easily one of the best in an RPG to date.
cptmaxon:
the good and evil thing is not something own to NWN, it's something the entire DnD system suffers from. I dislike it too, but I'm not about to let it ruin my gaming experience, or define the depth of a character for me. I am not a gamer - I am a writer, and If you look at games like gothic and compare the actual storyline quality to neverwinter nights, you will find that, even though Gothic's atmosphere is grittier and more realistic, it just suffers from bad writing. Neverwinter Nights, with all its straightforwardedness and predictability, still is very finely written, its characters are well-rounded and creative, and explore every nook and cranny of the very limiting dungeon and dragons rulebook.
Personally, I would have made the game with no DnD in mind, but it's obvious that the Wizards of the Coast label sells units. That's what they were trying to do, and they succeeded. NWN is a veritable legend, and for all the negative criticism it receives on these forums, it isn't unmerited.
The characters in Gothic are more realistic and less a factor of creation with the good and evil adjectives in mind, which i like, but they are quite poorly written into the ...quite simplistic.. storyline.
Deekin was very interesting, giving you a smile at everything he said throughout SoU, and the HotU henchmen inspired thought. You cannot say predictability was top in the final battle in HotU, where I was, to my complete surprise, abandoned by both henchmen in favor of Mephistopheles. Aribeth, in her turn, may have seemed a bit bland to you in her replies, but she was a very well-rounded character. the blandness was mostly because she had such a great deal of dialogue to fill.
In Gothic II, there is far less dialogue, which leaves you a lot more room to fantasize things in, which prevent you from feeling characters are bland... But as for the dialogue comparison of what there actually was, I feel quite confident when I say the dialogue in NWN was better than the one in GII. Actually, it was one of my greatest quarrels in the game GothicII: far too little interaction with NPCs. Like everyone in the game sold you something, trained you or gave you a quest; everyone else didn't really have anything to say at all.
About the love story in NWN.... What love story? I didn't know there was one in NWN. I did love it in BGII though, although my romance was not with Jaheira, it was with Aerie... I kinda disliked Jaheira, even in the first BG, heh.
Bartacus: I agree on the controls. Before buying Gothic, I read a review on Gamespot that said the controls were awful, and I almost let it persuade me from buying it. After I did, I was appalled, because I absolutely loved the contrls, especially the fact you could do the whole left and right slash and combo, and that your fighting style actually changed with your skill in swordfighting. I hope they didnt change that, or if they did, not a lot in any case. |
Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:00 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
I see I've quoted a bit wrong here -> It's mainly the inventory that I really liked about Gothic. I'm absolutely against the inventory system like in NWN and that's the inventory system most commonly used in games -> click and drag.
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Tue Nov 01, 2005 6:26 pm |
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Gaidal Cain
Head Merchant
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 54
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hmm... I didn't think it differed all that much, or made that much of a difference actually. I don't much use my inventory during combat, so I never really took much notice I guess.
Hey, you're flemish! I'm from wetteren... you? |
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Tue Nov 01, 2005 7:59 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Gaidal Cain
Personally, I would have made the game with no DnD in mind
Good man!  Vive la revolution!
While we're on the subject of dialogue... most screenwriters will tell you that a dialogue-heavy script is a mistake, because it does not use the great strength of TV & film (visual storytelling), and it's true - films with lots of yakking are almost always stupifyingly boring (exceptions: Glengarry Glen Ross, 12 Angry Men... not much else, and without great performances they're nothing); films with imaginative and effective visual storytelling usually hold the viewers' interest much better, can deliver information much more efficiently and with greater emotional resonance, and can be a joy to watch.
Amazingly, this seems to be lost on most game developers - I've lost count of the number of games in which I've been bombarded with information right at the beginning: places and names that mean absolutely nothing to me at that early stage, usually delivered in reams of text or a soul-destroying (for myself and the actor, no doubt) voice monologue, preventing me from playing the game. I play a lot of different games, and many offend in this respect, but RPGs get it wrong more than most. This very problem made me hate KotOR from the very beginning, and although I really, really dislike playing a game without gathering every bit of information it has to offer, I've found myself skipping or ignoring dialogue in some recent RPGs because the content is so bloated with unnecessary detail and the delivery so depressingly poor.
In NWN, for example, almost every NPC encountered in the early stages has several pages of conversation to endure, and it's an immense chore to have to stand next to 5 or 6 NPCs in turn and wade through all this text before there's even a hint of real gameplay. Characters with depth and complex relationships are great, but trying to deliver a person's life story, goals & ambitions, philosophy and opinions on current events in an introductory blabfest the first time you meet them is insane (not to mention unrealistic). It's lazy exposition - the world and its backstory are being described to you in text or audio monologues, rather than through exploration and in-game events, and it is wrong for exactly the same reasons as in screenwriting - it totally ignores the potential of the videogame as a storytelling medium. The games that get it right (Thief, System Shock, Half Life, Ico, Fatal Frame II) spectacularly prove the clumsiness of those that don't.
In films and games alike, it's never the story, but they way it's told that's important - now, I regard the vast majority of RPG stories as hackneyed, stereotypical garbage, usually involving barely-distinguishable Tolkein-ripoff settings and the same old Chosen One vs. Ultimate Evil routine (am I more popular now?  ). But some games reheat this old turkey better than others - BG and NWN did absolutely nothing to make it more palateable for me, while Planescape:Torment chopped it up and served it in a way I couldn't ever have imagined (the fact that it was not a save-the-world story but a personal one helped a great deal too). Gothic gave us the same old fantasy nonsense yet again, but was saved because the prison setting was unusual, they got the gritty vibe just right, and character interactions were mostly brief but to-the-point (you got the information and characterisation you needed without having to down tools and read/listen for 10 mintues). Even Thief was full of the same old cliches, but its story was told in such an unusual way that it felt new. If, right at the beginning of a game, it becomes obvious that "oh, I'm doing this again..." the storytelling has already failed its first test, and it's going to take something pretty special to keep me interested - and a patience-destroying infodump ain't going to cut it.  |
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Tue Nov 01, 2005 9:48 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
well they are trying that in Dragon age , as I understand it, they pretty much chucked D&D worlds and races, and did thier own thing...
Kain, I disagree I could tell that my npc had some troubles I chose the drow and and the weapon master, and it was clear they both had serious issues, the drow was the love story in hordes of the underdark, and arbieth was in the first one btw(she loved you so much after showing her teh ring that she just turned herself in) anyway where was I , the had seriuos issues, the drow was scared of the evil inside her, and the tiefling was scared of his blood and what it can make him do blah blah blah, so I invested in buying thier real names and the demon's name as well..., and that was that I commanded them both to ignore thier problem and they didn't desert me, and then the demon died, it was amusing but I knew it was going to happen(the first time I played through I mean really I'm not psychic or anything but it was just predictible), perhaps I just played too many rpgs
plin, I disagree with you about the text lenght , I think of it more as a genre selection, all those 10 year old can't stand to stay put and read the lines 
but sometimes it is too much, I mean how long do you stay there and talk to the guy..., I think gothic and to some degree kotor did it well when they had a life like converstion going. which is always good for me because I like the world to be immersive as possible.
also about the controls in gothic, I love them , I really do they make you think about battles ahead of time same with the inventory, I always thought it was wierd you could just drink a potion in a middle of a fight..., so gothic was good in that regard.
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:01 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by cptmaxon
plin, I disagree with you about the text lenght , I think of it more as a genre selection, all those 10 year old can't stand to stay put and read the lines
That just confirms that it's a test of patience. I'm 31 and I can't stand it either - not because I lack the mental capacity or attention span to take it all in, but because it's a grating failure of writing & storytelling and a misuse of the medium. I won't choose to spend time on poor writing any more than poor game design or poorly-made films. Thief shows how efficiently and unobtrusively it can be done - each level has a selection of characters, in addition to the major characters that run through the whole game, and most of them (even the incidental characters who we'll never see again) have interesting relationships, secrets or motives which are described to us fully through observed actions, overheard conversations, found letters - all without the player's character ever needing to talk to someone directly, and all during gameplay. Now that's good writing. On the other hand, a character meeting me for the first time and saying "Well, this is me..." and proceeding to talk for 5 minutes/10 pages while the screen is totally static - that is an absolute failure of the writer's art. Nobody would stand for that in a film, and we shouldn't stand for it in games either.
quote:
I always thought it was wierd you could just drink a potion in a middle of a fight..., so gothic was good in that regard.
I'm with you on that 100% - I'm sure some games did it before, but I first became aware of it in Diablo. Suddenly, your skill in the game meant nothing, and instead the deciding factor was how many health potions you were carrying. One hand on the mouse, the other hovering over the "drink potion" key - garbage. I am annoyed to see it in some games I really like (eg, Arx Fatalis), but whenever possible I will ignore the option and play without it (thankfully, I was able to do this in Arx). I mean, if you're going to go this route, you might as well make it an automatic extension of the life bar - just like Ration in Metal Gear Solid (I hope this comment illustrates just how inappropriate I believe it is in RPGs). There really should be an interruptable process that means drinking a potion in battle is not instant and not practical; failing that (or preferably in addition), a gradual effect like the slow-acting medical patches in System Shock should be applied. |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 2:43 pm |
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Gaidal Cain
Head Merchant
Joined: 29 Oct 2005
Posts: 54
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Piln - have you played Legacy of Kain?
It's not a great game, by any means, but its articulate story by way of dialogue is what makes the game series one of my favorite out. Mind you; this is dialogue done right. I love Dialogue, I love that Patrick Stewart will be the Emperor in Oblivion. The dialogue in LoK is nothing short of spectacular; very articulately written, very intricate storyline and very cunning induction of imagery. Not to mention the haunting voices that go perfectly with the characters they depict - - If I would be able to make a game, I'd cast all the main LoK characters as voice actors. If they can take a rather detached game and make you fight like the devil is on your heels just so you can get to the next cutscene - that's a serious accomplishment imo.
So yes, a lot of meaningless dialogue will take something away from the game - - though it doesn't take the fun away like crashing constantly or having terrible translation with misspelled subtitles (Morrowind, Gothic II), but if the dialogue is done right, talking is something to look forward to. And that's how it should be in an RPG imo. It should be mostly talking, sometimes combat. Not like it is now: a lot of combat with a little talking in between. I think that's what makes me like NWN better - - there's a lot less meaningless hack'n slash than most games. Just look at Guild Wars or Dungeon Siege, you'll know what I mean. A roleplaying game is not an action game with some talking sequences in between - I don't consider Final Fantasy a roleplaying game.
If I had my way, btw, there would be no potions or healing spells at all. Get hit and be wounded, have to heal by going home and have someone bandage you and herbalize you. Get hit badly and just plain die. Combat in my opinion should be about skirmishes - which means killing the foe but first and foremost make sure you're not killed - not rely on who has the most hit points and drink a potion after you're done.
cpt - I don't know. I got into NWN really well, more than most games. I thought the quests were designed a lot better than in Morrowind or Gothic, especially. Not as groundbreaking as the quests in BGII:SoA, but still. It's hard to find an RPG with good quests, and NWN definitely had them. I didn't really mind the redundant dialogue. |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:29 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
IIRC, you can have a romance with Aribeth if you make the right selections in one of the expansions. Nothing in the main game, but Aribeth will stay true to you in HOTU if you play a certain way.
Oops, this was in reply to whoever asked if there was a romance in NeverWinter Nights.
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Last edited by crpgnut on Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:52 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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First you can have a romance with Airibeth in the origanl game, secondly I can't understand how anyone can like the single player campaign in NWN, the writing was awaful, the story was awful, and the gameplay was below average!
Thirldy, what does this have to do with Gothic?  |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 6:56 pm |
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mazu
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 21 Nov 2004
Posts: 251
Location: Desert Camp |
The NPC's in Gothic are the most memorable NPC's. I can still remember almost everyone, because they all had their own personalities.
[Except people like: Citizen, Guard etc.]
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I really, really tried to figure out something clever here like "Life is a waterfall" and artistic stuff like that but no! I still cannot figure out a signature arrrr yarrr! Me bucko! Pirates! |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 7:28 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
GC, yeah, I did play a little of Legacy Of Kain, but something stopped me - I think it was just at a time when I didn't get much chance to play games, got stuck in LoK and eventually forgot about it. But I don't really recall much to dislike about it (seemed like an evil Zelda!  )
I did play all of Soul Reaver, though, and while that did have some over-long exposition (and other faults), I thought it did a pretty decent job of filling in the history of the gameworld (despite it being mostly voice-over). Information was given to the player in manageable chunks as each area was explored, rather than all up-front. This is the kind of thing I'm talking about - most RPGs will give a truckload of information about several places and people you've never even seen yet, sometimes hours before you're in a position to act on said information - and you invariably have to check your journal and read the lot again when it eventually becomes pertinent. Elegant storytelling imparts information a bit at a time, so as not to bore or ruin pace - and only when the player needs to know.
Unfortunately, they totally blew it in Soul Reaver 2. Unskippable 8-minute cutscene at the beginning of the game, all talking, with worse to come? Idiots!
On a totally unrelated note, Soul Reaver had great music, too. 
I like the "mundane" fantasy idea, too. I have nothing against the highly magical approach, except for the fact that we're rarely offered any alternative - almost every RPG uses essentially the same setting & style (names & faces changed, of course). I'd love to see something like you describe, or a fantasy game in which magic is still present, but not the usual flashy over-the-top lightshow. Healing spells that hurt like hell as they knit flesh back together (preventing their use in the thick of battle); sinister voodoo-like magical attacks that involve rituals and planning, not just pointing and chanting.
One of the things I really liked about the much-hated Ultima 8 was it's use of different magical routines - none of it felt like the same old battle-mage business, and the ritualistic practises you had to learn were brilliantly varied and gave it a great occult feel. Another very different example is the old ST/Amiga game Dragon's Breath, which had an unbelievably complicated and infinitely flexible system of spell-concoction - combining ingredients at great length to amplify the desired result (eg, city-wide plague) and iron out the unwanted side-effects. Difficult, and confusing at first, but fascinating and immensely rewarding.
Sorry, GothicGothicness, we are off-topic, so I'll add this: Gothic's approach to magic brought nothing new or interesting to the RPG genre.  |
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Wed Nov 02, 2005 8:20 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
Plin, you think that rituals and things like that shouldn't be hard to learn?, if you take it from a RL precpetive of course, I didn't play any of those games you were talking about, so obviusly I don't have a basis for comparsion....
all I can say is I found the gothic series voice acting medicore, but I haven't really seen anything else that was mentioned here, as examples to a good voice acting, I thought kotor was amusing since it had aliens talk in it(even if it was just repetitve sounds).
yes gothic didn't really change anything , but I liked it because it was harder being a mage 
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"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:23 am |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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haha funny seeing some one mention Legacy of Kain  now thats a horrible series right there defiance is the worst one in the series.
But you got to admit Kains voice is amazingly well done not to many voices that fit a character of a vampire like that its perfect sounds so cold so evil so powerful
Too bad they made him a crappy vampire in the games though.
EDIT: Soul reaver series was horrible as well that character was crap. |
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Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:42 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by cptmaxon
Plin, you think that rituals and things like that shouldn't be hard to learn?
All depends on the game, and how said rituals figure into gameplay. For example, in Ultima 8 the fire-related rituals were pretty in-depth and took a bit of learning, and actually carrying them out was a fairly lengthy process - which was fine, because the game didn't force you to rely on these rituals as your sole means of progress in hectic action-gameplay situations. Plus, the whole thing was rewarding because the learning and execution of these rituals was done in gameplay, rather than being an abstract process of RPG mechanics that have no effect on the player's activities.
But if a game gives me a character whose only effective means of survival is magic, and who is put in situations where he/she is forced to rely on that skill ealry and frequently, then no, I don't think magic should be difficult to learn - any character should be given adequate means to do what they are expected to do. Like I said before, although they may find them a challenge, the fighters and thieves are always given the means to overcome those early conforntations, whereas the mages are given three laughably-weak magic missiles per day. If, as in most D&D-based CRPGs, combat is frequent and compulsory, handing the player a character who isn't equipped to cope but expecting them to play, essentially, the same game as a warrior is a backward approach to game balance. If you want to make a game about the trials and self-sacrifice of learning a difficult magical skill, then for pity's sake, create gameplay that is suited to the player character's tools and abilities at each stage of the game - don't just throw wave after wave of enemies at them regardless of their ability to fend them off. If you insist on doing so, it makes no sense not to give the mage character adequate spells (and the ability to continually cast them) so that they can 1. partake in, and survive, the direct combat that is expected of them without it becoming a tedious sequence of hit-and-run-and-rest-and-repeat raids, and 2. actually have fun all the way through the game.
As for Gothic, I don't think the lateness of adequate magic skills was a problem at all in that game - because your ability to survive and enjoy the gameworld was not at all hindered by their absence. You were never forced to use skills that were inadequate for the task at hand. I just think there was nothing in Gothic's magic that was special or new, and its execution was clumsy (but we know that Gothic's control method all-round had a lot of problems, thanks to it being designed with a Playstation gamepad in mind). |
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Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:20 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
quote:
Originally posted by Gaidal Cain
hmm... I didn't think it differed all that much, or made that much of a difference actually. I don't much use my inventory during combat, so I never really took much notice I guess.
Hey, you're flemish! I'm from wetteren... you?
Van Antwoarpe -> actually not, I'm from Edegem -> independent from Antwerp, but neighbouring. The weird thing is that I live actually as far from the center of Antwerp(13km) as the center of Mechelen(17km).
Now back on topic:
Piln, perhaps that's why I like the controls so much. I play on PS2 sometimes and I'm used to their controls.(wouldn't like any other for a gamepad)
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Thu Nov 03, 2005 5:06 pm |
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