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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Well, Applebrown I just defended that my system don't reveal more or less objective criterias regarding the quality of the criterias, my system don't contain (most of it) directly information about the quality of each criteria or the criterias price value for that matter.
Ex: The story is determined to be twisting, and often upgraded and with many endings, but still the story in itself could be crappy (for me). But the system should not show it nor should it get involved in this too subjective matter.
If you in our example allow Surround decoding marks like AC3, EX,DTS etc. in your system, I think it would loose as much objectivity as in my system, as you decide which marks, should count in the scorelist and which not!
It would be no difference than my criterias of different number of different items in the manipulation list!
Okay, lets wait until you have come a little further with your list, as your remaining categories more will reveal the issues we talk about now! I am eager to see rest of your list with only objective criterias!
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Wed Jan 29, 2003 3:25 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
All right, thanks for clearing up the misunderstanding on my part, Apple. Now we know for sure that we all want the same thing, which means that both system can be merged one way or another. With this new, or rather regained discovery, I have a fresh salve of comments up my sleeve. 
~However, I'm not about to make the jump that 10 traps is better than 5 in an RPG, and hence add more weight to it. Or having 25 base statistics is better than 10. I simply feel that more does not equal better.~
I think/hope I got you now. Without disrespect to either of the two systems, Michael's does seem to be a bit too heavy on the numbers sometimes, in that I agree with you partially. It would probably hard to use on a game since numbers are, like any other "amount" criterion, hard to judge. Your system, on the other hand, looks a little too general for now, at least in regard to the example criteria you listed in your first draft. However, it is a lot easier to use...
Michael has already tried to explain his reservation with the radio example (surround decoding techniques), and judging by your reply, in which you stated that your system would have the very same criteria, I would assume that both thought systems aren't so different after all.
Well, here is what I propose, without further explanation, or maybe it will explain itself:
We try to get rid of numbers wherever possible, because I still believe that Apple's system could work out. Before that, though, we should take a very close look at Michael's huge (but as it seems still incomplete) list of criteria, and take them as clues to where we should pay attention. If Michael has used several different levels of the apparently same criterion, it's already a good hint at the possibility that it could perhaps be atomized into different elements.
For instance, one element that is way too vague in my opinion is the following:
~:: PC's can customize their appearance, either during creation or during play.~
This would effectively be an RPG element of Deus Ex. However, in Deus Ex you can only choose between like 5 faces and nothing more. Regardless of the number of faces you can select, there is more to a character's appearance than just his face. If you were for instance also able to change your clothes, the entire say, group of "appearance" would be closer to the concept of an ideal RPG.
What makes us different from other people? How do we appear to the "outside world"?
We can differ in sex, age, height, weight, skin color, hair color, eye color, hair style, the clothes we wear or our faces. All these elements and much more play a role in how we look. Then we have different voices... The more you can customize your avatar to your liking, the easier you can think yourself into your new role. This looks like "the more the better", but only in regard to your appearance as a collection of more detailed criteria.
In Michael's system, this would probably be represented by something like "there are up to 3 ways to customize your character; there are up to 10 ways..". Some of Michael's criteria may be too biased, like the number of races you can choose from, but others are more like this example, I guess.
~I'd rather think a lot on how to define that idea of multiple statistics or traps without issuing a number, thereby eliminating some of the bias other than the fact that we're putting in Traps as a category in to begin with.~
That's a good idea, but for it to work I reason that you (or we all) have to find more detailed elements than some of those you provided already. Otherwise it would be too simplistic and would not account enough for subtle differences. I agree that elements are weighted just by "being there". However, if one such "element" is in itself made up of elements that could be considered important to the definition of an ideal RPG, that particular "element" gets too little weight. Again, this is not exactly about "the more the better" because it actually describes different aspects of a higher category.
That idea might be what Michael's system tries to grasp with numbers, although maybe it doesn't succeed in every case, and what yours should in my opinion do with different elements if possible. Obviously, as one can see from my appearance example above, it can quickly get too detailed, so what you or we could do is to determine one tiny, little, single RPG element and let all other RPG elements be more or less equally detailed. For instance, "PC's age" could be a good start. All other elements should be likewise small, like "PC's can choose between different faces", "... different races (if more than one race plays a role in the game)", "... different clothing at character creation and/or during gameplay", "... different voices", just to give a few examples.
_________________
“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
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Wed Jan 29, 2003 11:02 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
I have probably been to eager when I distributed specific numbers, and may have put in to many criterias about traps! I did mention that the list still needed some refining, as I had put this list up in a bit of a hurry to evolve our interesting discussion! My point with the list is not exactly the number of different traps, but the necessary clarification and weighting of each criteria, by putting in exact numbers, as terms like: Several, More, Huge, Few etc. only leads to personal preferences when reviewers uses the system! And I believe some rpg-elements needs to be covering more than only 1 criteria, as if they are more dense or heavy presented, they will bring even more RPG stuff.
EX:
1 Criteria: Character can choose different professions!
This is quite an objective criteria in it's self, and 90% of all games even none RPG's could probably check this criteria!
Well I hope we can agree that the more different professions a game offers, the more "role playing" possibilities it offers.
So, my approach is obvious according to my system, it's just adding another criteria like: "At least 3 different proffesions" or something precise defined like that. The only other possibility I can see right now is make a criteria for each profession (Thief, Mage, Barbar, Hunter, Cleric etc.) (AC3, DTS, Dolby digital EX, etc. ), but this first of all biasses which professions are better than others, and prevent giving points for new unforseen invented professions (Sound systems)! I already mentioned that I prefer the number "3" instead of the term " A few" to avoid debatable discussions.
PC-age: In the Might & Magic games VI-IX, characters ages 1-2 years, or a little more by magic, but it has no roleplaying influence at all. In the earlier M&M games, you could build up quite some years by unnatural means, and it did affect the characters stats both negative, and positive, but other than than no effect.
Is it more "roleplaying" controlling a teen-ager than a 60 year old retired banker??? I think not
Is it more "roleplaying" living a more extensive life cyclus of your characters life (20-50 years!)??? Perhaps so! But living a intense 90 days life (saving the world) can be quite as interesting as living a quiet 20 years life!
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Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:42 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Arhu
Without disrespect to either of the two systems, Michael's does seem to be a bit too heavy on the numbers sometimes, in that I agree with you partially. It would probably hard to use on a game since numbers are, like any other "amount" criterion, hard to judge.
I disagree Arhu, precise numbers leaves to much less judgment, as it's the precise facts you have to count! I admit that some criterias demand that you are quite familiar with the game to answer them, but again exact numbers leads to less judgements, and more facts! If the numbers are fair or not is another discussion!
EX: I making a review that a game have more than 3 character professions to choose from, and I can eliminate any other "judgement" by mention at least 4 character professions from the game! Simple as that.
And, no I don't belive that putting in criterias without any subjective adjectives (Like numbers, or words like Big, more, huge, several) will give us a system that will be informative enough in my taste!
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Thu Jan 30, 2003 10:00 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
Michael, I've lived in the US all my life, before moving to Canada, and only speak and write English. I know a lot of other people that post on these sites, including you, are from Europe. I just wanted to tell you that when you use exclamation points at the end of your sentences, it means you're really excited. I mean REALLY excited! Your ideas will come across better if you don't use _as_ many exclamation points, whether they are valid or not.
Applebrown |
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Thu Jan 30, 2003 3:52 pm |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
It's not the meat, but it's the potatoes. Here's the instructions that I wrote out for the system. The system itself is subject to change if there is a need.
The RPG Universal Index
The instructions are detailed yet simplistic enough so that anyone can use the system, for any game. This happens to be a scale for RPG's, so if your game doesn't fit in or is not similar with the RPG genre, its index score will most likely be lower. The instructions are long, but laid out in extremely easy-to-understand steps.
The average total time to score a game is not meant to exceed 30 minutes, if you've played the game.
Instructions:
PART I - ANSWERS
With each condition, choose one of the following answers:
[yes] - if the game satisfies the condition, to the best of your knowledge.
[no] - if the game fails to satisfy the condition, to the best of your knowledge.
[n/a] - if the condition does not pertain (is not applicable) to the game, and the reason is explained or obvious.
Example of an [n/a] answer:
:: Game has variable weather or atmosphere. (i.e., Rain, Clouds, Fog, Wind, Heat, Thunderstorms)
Reason: if the game is completely set inside a ship or indoors, the condition above wouldn't apply, thus [n/a]. For this reason, [n/a] answers are not counted against the game. If any condition is possible for a game, do not mark [n/a].
PART II - CATEGORY SCORING
a) Count the number of [yes] answers in each main category. This is the amount of yes Conditions.
b) Count the number of [n/a] answers in each main category. This is the amount of n/a Conditions.
c) For each main category, subtract the amount of n/a Conditions from the total amount of conditions possible for that category (this number is given at the beginning of each category). The answer is the amount of valid Conditions.
d) For each main category, divide the number of yes Conditions by the amount of valid Conditions above.
e) Round the answer to the nearest tenth of a percent. Ex: .45253 would be 45.3% (on all 5's round up). This answer is the Category Index Score. Place the Category Index Score next to each main category.
PART III - TOTAL SCORING
a) Sum the total of all [yes] answers, in all the categories. This is the amount of total yes Conditions.
b) Sum the total of all [n/a] answers in all the categories. This is the amount of total n/a Conditions.
c) Subtract the total n/a Conditions from the total amount of conditions possible for all categories (this number is given at the top of the score sheet). The answer is the amount of total valid Conditions.
d) Divide the number of total yes Conditions by the amount of total valid Conditions above.
e) Round the answer to the nearest tenth of a percent. Ex: .6355 would be 63.6% (on all 5's round up). This answer is the Total Index Score.
f) Add all of the Category Index Scores, and divide by 4 (the number of main categories). Round the answer to the nearest tenth of a percent. Ex: .5901 would be 59.0%. The answer is the Total Category Index Score.
g) Add the Total Index Score to the Total Category Index Score above. Divide by 2 (to find the average). Round to the nearest tenth of a percent. This answer is your final RPG Universal Index Score.
PART IV - RESULTS
a) Your review should follow this example form:
Game: Title of Game
Year Released: If the year is known, write it here.
STORY: 52.2%
CHARACTERS: 25.9%
INTERACTION (LOCAL): 85.1%
INTERACTION (GLOBAL): 80.7%
RPG Universal Index Score: 66.4%
Extra Info:
Game Modes: MMO world, Single-player campaign, Multi-player up to 20 people, etc.
Party Type: 1 character party w/ 1 additional NPC, 6 character Party w/ 2 additional NPC's, etc.
Views Possible: 1st Persion or 3rd Person 3D, Isometric 2.5D, etc.
Any other pertinent information, such as:
Charge: Monthly Fee. |
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Thu Jan 30, 2003 7:16 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Applebrown: My intended use of exclamation points wasn't the way you claim it to be, I use them to state that I end a comment on one subject. And probably start a new one.
Sorry for the abuse of your english language, and thanx for the info, I will try lower my eagerness in the future!
Well, back to subject: Your score system seems well thought, however I still don't like the ending mix total score (universal score  ) It's got no real usable meaning IMHO.
The idea of subtracting n/a criterias from the number of valid criterias is an interesting idea, but could open up for more discussions than it solves.
Ex: Take Gothic for instanse, the characters lives under a transparant dome. Some could claim this would make the criteria you use as an example a n/a criteria, others could claim that they stil could make e.g. rain or thunder hitting the dome but didn't, giving it a "no" uder the criteria.
4 categories is also a bit to narrow in my opinion, even more because 2 of them: Interactive this and that could feel very related.
Well, we still miss the interesting part the subjective and informative criterias.
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 8:20 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
quote:
My intended use of exclamation points wasn't the way you claim it to be, I use them to state that I end a comment on one subject. And probably start a new one.
Of course, that's what periods are for.  And I figured you weren't as excited as you appeared. That's why I mentioned it.
quote:
I still don't like the ending mix total score (universal score ) It's got no real usable meaning IMHO.
I'm not sure how you can come to a conclusion like that when you haven't seen all the conditions. About 5 or so posts ago from me, I explained the reasoning behind this system of not "mixing", but averaging both the category scores with the total conditions met, for a more complete score.
The reasoning is that by just averaging the category scores for a percentage, it has an inherent bias that some categories have more conditions than others. And, similarly by taking just the total amount of conditions met divided by the total conditions in the whole index, you have a bias that doesn't account for any category being stronger than others, which would tell you less as well. Average those two out, however, and it's a much better balance. And, actually I believe the final score tells you lots. It's a combination of the average of the categories and the total amount of "hits" the game got by checking off as many conditions as possible in our "ideal" RPG.
I'll say this. Whatever system I end up using, even if it's one with numeric values on every condition, I think system of scoring it above will be the one to go by until either I or someone else has something better. I can't think of a fairer, or more accurate total score, than that (right now).
quote:
Ex: Take Gothic for instanse, the characters lives under a transparant dome. Some could claim this would make the criteria you use as an example a n/a criteria, others could claim that they stil could make e.g. rain or thunder hitting the dome but didn't, giving it a "no" uder the criteria.
Everyone is not going to have the same answers, on either of our systems, agreed? If they're smart, and we hope they are, they'll think about the condition before marking something down. If everyone had the same answer, then there would be no point of us even bring the system public would there? We could do it ourselves and rate the game, and that would be that. No room for error or difference. But I believe both of us want to make the system as similar as can be so we can average the final scores out from all people who vote. At least that's my intention if this thing ever gets wheels.
About the gothic 2 conundrum above. If there's a huge transparent dome way above that I cannot see, which I'm assuming is the case in Gothic 2, wouldn't you think it likely that they'd want to create some sort of rain for watering of crops, etc? Or some variance in wind or breeziness? It probably wouldn't be the same weather, 100% sunny and nothing changes, even inside a dome. I would mark [no] on my criteria for sure if the dome could not be seen. I would think about it some, and probably mark [no] if the dome could be seen even, because it's outdoors and not obviously inside. I'd mark [n/a] depending on how close the dome appeared. Maybe it would be unfeasible for rain or weather. In any case, if it's fully explained why there isn't weather, then I'd probably mark [n/a]. So there's some room for variance. But that's just one condition. You won't have that problem on the majority. And that's up to me and anyone else working on the conditions to make it so every condition isn't a mental exercise.
Applebrown |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 2:44 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Hi there!
Michael: ~I disagree Arhu, precise numbers leaves to much less judgment, as it's the precise facts you have to count! I admit that some criterias demand that you are quite familiar with the game to answer them, but again exact numbers leads to less judgements, and more facts.~
Okay, maybe my formulation was a bit awkward, but what I meant with "numbers are hard to judge" was more something like "difficult to review", taking into account that you indeed have to know the game pretty well. "Number of professions" are quickly counted, but what about something like "story develops > 10 / > 30 times during game"? Would you, or could you, as a reviewer, easily count the number of overall-sidestories?
Well, basically, what I'm saying is that it's easier to answer simple yes/no questions.
~And I believe some rpg-elements needs to be covering more than only 1 criteria, as if they are more dense or heavy presented, they will bring even more RPG stuff.~
I kind of agree. However, if an RPG element is such that it should cover more than one criterion, couldn't that merely imply that this "element" is not an actual element but rather a small sub-category, itself made of individual elements? Apple's system would be similar insofar that it effectively has those numbers converted to different elements, where applicable. We "only" have to find and specify these elements.
One example where I think it's not really important how much of it there is in the game is "races". This would in my opinion be one element. In Deus Ex for instance, you can only play one race, a human, but it doesn't matter because the game takes place in a human world. You could even say that you can play different "races", as you can choose different skin colors, although I personally think that mankind is itself only one race.. In games where the world is inhabited by different races however, like most fantasy worlds derived or inspired by the Tolkienesque universe, it would matter. Morrowind would fail this criterion if you could only play a human, although if the story gave a reason, it would be n/a maybe...
Speaking of Morrowind, it has quite a few other character customization options. Besides your race, you can choose your gender, face, "profession" etc., and your (visibly presented) clothing/armor during the game, all of which I think are single RPG elements. Deus Ex lacks most of these features, even though there is no real reason for it.
That all said, I believe there should be some kind of n/a rating in Apple's system, that gives a picture of how many elements were not applicable in regard to the total number. That is, the total number of all [n/a] answers divided by the total number of all answers. This way you could tell how many RPG elements certain games "lack", even if these elements don't play a role in said games. I would include such a rating in every major catogory there is, which I reason would be quite informational, providing a better basis for interpretation and atone a bit for your disputing that it had no real usable meaning.
(Age)
~PC-age: In the Might & Magic games VI-IX, characters ages 1-2 years, or a little more by magic, but it has no roleplaying influence at all.~
Aye, that's why I thought it could perhaps make a good "smallest" RPG element. Anyway, I think if a game spanned several years, and you as a player noticed that, and asked yourself "come to think of it, how old am I", and couldn't answer your question, then it would decrease the suspension of disbelieve, which is not good for roleplaying. If the game spans only a short time anyway, age wouldn't matter so much.
~Is it more "roleplaying" controlling a teen-ager than a 60 year old retired banker??? I think not~
You're right, but if you had the choice between playing a teenager and an old man, you could choose the one you can better identify with for one reason or another. The same can be said of games that force you into a certain gender. As a female it's harder to identify with a male character, and vice versa.
~Is it more "roleplaying" living a more extensive life cyclus of your characters life (20-50 years!)??? Perhaps so! But living a intense 90 days life (saving the world) can be quite as interesting as living a quiet 20 years life!~
Agreed. That's why in this case these [n/a] answers would come in quite handy.
Apple, your rating manual looks good. I wouldn't call the main rating "RPG Universal Index" though, as I'd prefer "RPG.Index". Do you get my point?  I have already suggested this some time before, but nobody jumped on the train. *sob*
Then, I tend to agree with Michael that those 4 categories are not enough for the final presentation, at least not from a player's point of view. Some people might consider combat really important in RPGs, so for them it would be quite tough to figure out how well it is implemented an a given game if there were no such category. The users on this board who participated in this thread came to the conclusion that knowing more about the six categories we had in the old system (Story, Character(s), NPC's, Gameworld, Manipulation, Combat) was useful.
For the final presentation, we could distribute any fitting RPG elements to any category we can come up with, but let's keep that for later, shall we?
Your list gives a good overview of what's possible with your system, so I hope we can now start thinking about more RPG elements for it!
Some of the criteria you already provided may have to be split up into smaller elements, particularly the "PC's can customize their appearance, either during creation or during play" criterion. If by "appearance" you mean clothes your character can wear or similar traits that are not inherent to your body, then you should change the term to something less ambiguous.
And finally, I'm the third to say: "let's just start with it and see". We can discuss or revise parts of the system, if there's need to do that, after we have progressed with its creation.
_________________
“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
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Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:01 pm |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
quote:
Some people might consider combat really important in RPG
Arhu, I totally forgot about combat. But let's add it. Obviously I hadn't yet come up with any combat-related conditions. Yes, combat is extremely important in 90% of RPG's to date. I can see some where combat would either be minor or not at all, so the [n/a] functions would have to apply there. But as a main category, yep. Therefore, the 5 would be Story, Characters, Interaction (local), Interaction (global), Combat. The rules will be updated with the proper formula once we get it complete. I'll see if I can work on more conditions over the weekend and post them here.
I'll tell ya, they don't make coming to Canada easy. It's a huge waiting list for permanent residency, as well as expensive. But I digress...
Applebrown |
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Sat Feb 01, 2003 12:12 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Arhu
Okay, maybe my formulation was a bit awkward, but what I meant with "numbers are hard to judge" was more something like "difficult to review", taking into account that you indeed have to know the game pretty well. "Number of professions" are quickly counted, but what about something like "story develops > 10 / > 30 times during game"? Would you, or could you, as a reviewer, easily count the number of overall-sidestories?
Well, basically, what I'm saying is that it's easier to answer simple yes/no questions.
Well, yes it's a bit tougher to determine if a game includes a criteria or not, if you have to count somethimg rather than answering yes/no. But first of all, the intension of the numbers, should be a replacement for: Ex: less, medium, huge, which are as written before too debatable adjectives. The numbers in each criteria should be so far from each other within reasonable limits, that it should be easier to determine which criteria a game fullfils and which not. As mentioned a couple of times now , I prefer to have these numbered criterias, to the flat yes/no, for deeper evaluation. If you can find a satisfying way around them, I will gladly listen.
Well it's monday, so Applebrown will probably post an extended RPG element list any time now.
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Mon Feb 03, 2003 9:47 am |
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Wisp
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 5
Location: Brasil |
| Messing everything! (sorry :) ) |
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Excuse me for jumping in and messing things around after so much has already been said, but I kinda disagree with the criteria being used to determine a CRPG.
A Role Playing Game is a game where you role-play. That's all. 
Seriously, the most important thing in a RPG is the ability to choose actions and path - otherwise there would be no role-playing at all. Games where the end is already determined aren't RPG's - they are "adventures".
The fun in a RPG is to see what happens when things are messed around in this imaginary world, and see what else could have been. So, when I play a good RPG, it is a good RPG because there is a good Game Master telling the story and judging situations, making everything look as real as possible.
Does a RPG need rules? Not really. Rules are only meant to help the Game Master control the world, acting like a "mathematic common-sense". If the Game Master is able to judge situations, he doesn't need rules at all. All of today's game systems fail if they are supposed to be realistic - even GURPS with all those horrible formulae. If you want a realistic system, grab a physics book and start calculating bullet trajactories (better start soon, you'll take a long time ).
Of course games must have risk factor - not much fun in playing a game that you can't lose. People miss the risk factor in RPG's with no rules - they miss throwing dices, that's what I mean. Of course a Game Master could insert risk factor without dice-throwing, but it takes an incredibly skilled Game Master to do so, because players often disagree that doing something stupid like jumping from six meters and hiting your head on the ground is very often fatal (It happens to me a lot when I try to Game Master without rules. Die die die dumb-players!  ).
So finnaly, about COMPUTER RPG's. Using logic, we will see very fast that there is no such thing as a CRPG: a computer isn't capable of judging situations, it only responds to requests. So, as there isn't a program able to respond to all possible requests a user can make (I wanna be a Rock and Roll Star in this game! Oops! No such option... I can only be a thief, a warrior or a mage... ), there is no computer RPG.
Many of the so called CRPG's are good games, of course - but what we must see is that just because a game is fun it doesn't mean it is a "good RPG." Many things can be added to make a game fun - a cool game system, a lot of different items to use and equip, "magic system", a good story, imersive game-play - but in the end, what really matters is being able to choose, and receiving feedback on choices that have been made.
Yet, despite there is no such thing as a RPG in a computer, some games come closer to this than others. Fallout 2 is a good exemple of a game that has a lot of possibilities - of course there is a main plot you must solve (obviously, if there wasn't we would be facing an endless game! ), but when you finish the game you see all that has happened because of your actions.
As of now, Fallout 2 is the only computer game in wich I've seen the RPG characteristic of receiving a lot of feedback on the choices you make (in comparison to other games like "Baldurs Gate 1" or the dungeon hack "Diablo", where you have very little choices and very little feedback). Anyone knows of other games with such characteristics? More important, does anyone agree with something that I have said up to now?
Anyway, sorry for writing so much. You know it's hard to stop once you start. Ah, also pardon my english. Those were my 2 cents...
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Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:44 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Wisp
Any comments are welcome.
I think you rip up in one of our first discussions, on this topic, CRPG's vs RPG's. We are aware of the computers still limited posibilities to roleplay, as the P&P players define roleplaying. And we decided to make our definitions only apply to CRPG games, as it was our main target.
I guess that we always can discuss what is pure roleplaying elements, and which is not, or which topics enhance the CRPG's and how much more!
Computers can give us a visual and audial representation, which P&P only can imagine, and many numbers & rules are also convienient controlled by the computer. The drawback is the computers (programmers) do not yet have the ability to respond to all kind of special gamer behaviors.
I myself have no ambition in creating an universal RPG score system, which still leave a lot of open questions. Your quite simple and strong arguments about what few RPG element there really are, is probably correct in a superior summation, but many gamers would like to know more details before thinking of buying a game!
My (our) beginning point of finding CRPG-elements, was to draw them out from already existing CRPG's, but only those, who really added another dimension in a CRPG.
Basicly "Roleplaying" is to do what ever you want in a gameworld, and get a response on it. This is not possible in a CRPG, not even close, but by adding a lot of differents PC's, stories, items, interaction etc. A CRPG can only make these "do what you want" opportunities more or less limited. The less limited they are, the more roleplaying ingedienses a game probably got, and it's the name of those ingredienses we try to put into the system!
At least it is my version of it!
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Thu Feb 06, 2003 12:39 pm |
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Wisp
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Posts: 5
Location: Brasil |
Well, what you said about needing to define the CRPG's is agreed upon! And I do think that the criteria choosen are great to inform what is a good game.
But when I saw some results I thought that there should be an avaliation of how much each characteristic in the game contributes so that it feels like a RPG - a game being "RPG Heavy" and a "good game" would be two separate things.
What I mean is that game like Diablo doesn't deserve to be called even "RPG light" (every time I look at the box and see the sentence telling that it is a RPG I feel like tearing the box apart - even through it's a good game). Having NPC's in a game doesn't really make it a RPG, and the same goes for having items to manipulate. If that was so, every game where you "talk" to a character would be a RPG (and then maybe games like Indiana Jones: Secret of Atlantis would score better than Diablo, because it has many more NPC's.  )
What I meant to say is that maybe there should be two scores...
Anyway, too much is said for too little - maybe for many people giving a classification of how much RPG there is in a CRPG would be an unecessary thing, or maybe even non-understandable by them ("what did they mean by 'rpg heavy'?" (someone who never played a P'nP RPG)).
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 1:13 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Wisp.
Actually I was aiming for 6 scores, one for each major category: Story, NPC's, Manipulation, Gameworld, Combat and Playing Characters (PC's). Each category will have a score in % and a tag along with it saying RPG-light/heavy/medium etc. Ofcourse it's too tempting not to make a total score based on the average results of each of the major categories, but I also think that the score in each category in the end is the most interesting part.
And as I have been mentioning a couple of times before, in previous posts, a CRPG-element heavy game is not necessary better than a CRPG-element light game. It's a matter of taste how much CRPG-elements each player like, therefore each criteria in each category shouldn't demand answers about taste or feelings, just pure facts and "numbers" IMHO.
CRPG-heavy is just a explanation we have invented to group games which includes many CRPG-elements, and gives the player a best feeling of a RPG rather than just an adventure, with tight scripted possible actions.
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Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:19 am |
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