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Jazzy_s
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 115
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OK maybe to someone this post wont be very interesting but it works for me.
It's thery interesting?? Did the developers of the game inspired from some where the religious theme or they invented themselves???
And one more interesting thing: as you know the church is against violent movies, games,musik........... once I was watching a very interesting show on TV where the violence in game was discussed they where talking very bad about such games like Quake, Doom they where talking very bad they where showing sequencees from game and stuff like that. And sudenly they show a sequence from GothicII when the hereo was praying at the statue of Inos. I thought they will say something bad, I realy started to get mad but suddenly they started to eulogize the game they told that the game has a mesage for young generation and other good things. So you see Gothic is a game blessed by church. So even God is on the side of the developers and that's why Gothic3 will be a special game.
(if I have mutch mistakes in spelling forgive me......  ) |
Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:22 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy_s
And sudenly they show a sequence from GothicII when the hereo was praying at the statue of Inos. I thought they will say something bad, I realy started to get mad but suddenly they started to eulogize the game they told that the game has a mesage for young generation and other good things. So you see Gothic is a game blessed by church. So even God is on the side of the developers and that's why Gothic3 will be a special game.
How cool!  But... shouldn't they think it is sacrilege?! A god of Good, a god of Balance and one of Evil.
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:26 pm |
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Jazzy_s
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 115
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No the just said that it represents the battle betwen good and bad.
Well it was a pleasant shock for me too. |
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 7:40 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
Jazzy_s, this is a great topic, and you have brought to light one of the things I admire about the Gothic series: they treat religion and faith with respect.
Personally, I am not a very religious person but I do beleive in God.
And what I have seen in many games is that people with faith in some higher-power or belonging to any kind of religon are either made out to be fanatics, or total hypocrites. Any sense of collective worship is viewed in a negative light.
But with Gothic I found a totally different sentiment. They are not afraid to promote the idea of a one-powerful God (Innos) and an absoulte sense right and wrong which he stands for. Likewise, those who follow Innos are not made out to be fanatics. They are just regular people who may be either good or bad.
Also, when you become a Mage or Paladin you are given chances in your dialogue to comment about Innos and your pledge to his service. Did anyone else find the conversation with the woman (Eldrich's ex-GF) in the bandit camp of NOTR strangely fascinating?
I don't think the PB is overtly trying to promote religion. But I do feel that they made a concious decision to treat the topic of religious faith fairly. I applaud them for this.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 9:52 pm |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
Originally posted by elkston
But with Gothic I found a totally different sentiment. They are not afraid to promote the idea of a one-powerful God (Innos) and an absoulte sense right and wrong which he stands for. Likewise, those who follow Innos are not made out to be fanatics. They are just regular people who may be either good or bad.
Very strange, I see it entirely different. The real "one-powerful" god is the god of the watermages, Adanos. He is the one who cares about balance between Innos and Beliar. Think of the Great Serpent in Ultima VII: Part 2.
"Right" and "wrong" is, btw, not necessary the same as "good" and "bad".
I don't believe in a god, and if I'd do, I really wouldn't think of this god as a person. That's why I can accept the presence of "religion" in Gothic - it's totally obvious that it is meant as fiction. There are'nt even any atheists or agnostics in Gothic. The NPCs all just know that there are three gods. That isn't very religious, if you ask me. It's just ... part of the fantasy world.
Interesting point is that you just pray to Innos for some skillpoints and experience. Sometimes he doesn't give anything and I'm sometimes sad about my spent 100 gold. Beliar is more honest, in this case, because he just says: give some of yer mana/life, and perhaps I give ye some money. Maggot. Harhar. |
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Fri Dec 16, 2005 11:50 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Hindukönig
quote:
Originally posted by elkston
But with Gothic I found a totally different sentiment. They are not afraid to promote the idea of a one-powerful God (Innos) and an absoulte sense right and wrong which he stands for. Likewise, those who follow Innos are not made out to be fanatics. They are just regular people who may be either good or bad.
Very strange, I see it entirely different. The real "one-powerful" god is the god of the watermages, Adanos. He is the one who cares about balance between Innos and Beliar. Think of the Great Serpent in Ultima VII: Part 2.
I guess my point is: Although there is a sort of "poly-theism" at work, the underlying theme is that God is powerful and omnipitent. And that there is an real sense of "good and "bad". Notice how in the Addon Adanos is not afraid to show his wrath on the ancient peoples. That is very Old Testament.
And I never said Gothic was trying to be "religious". I said that they did not thumb their nose at religion as some people do.
quote:
I don't believe in a god, and if I'd do, I really wouldn't think of this god as a person.
Who said Innos, Adonos, Beliar were "people"? Of course God is not a "person", and there is no evidence that the people in the Gothic world believe that Innos, Beliar, or Adanos are "regular people".
quote:
That's why I can accept the presence of "religion" in Gothic - it's totally obvious that it is meant as fiction.
Of course its fiction. All I am saying is that fictional or not, Gothic presents a balanced view of religion or faith. No one is an outright fanatic or hypocrite if they beleive in the Gods. Its just part of their personality.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:51 am |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy_s
OK maybe to someone this post wont be very interesting but it works for me.
It's thery interesting?? Did the developers of the game inspired from some where the religious theme or they invented themselves???
And one more interesting thing: as you know the church is against violent movies, games,musik........... once I was watching a very interesting show on TV where the violence in game was discussed they where talking very bad about such games like Quake, Doom they where talking very bad they where showing sequencees from game and stuff like that. And sudenly they show a sequence from GothicII when the hereo was praying at the statue of Inos. I thought they will say something bad, I realy started to get mad but suddenly they started to eulogize the game they told that the game has a mesage for young generation and other good things. So you see Gothic is a game blessed by church. So even God is on the side of the developers and that's why Gothic3 will be a special game.
(if I have mutch mistakes in spelling forgive me...... )
dictionary.com is you're friend  |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 1:33 am |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
And I never said Gothic was trying to be "religious". I said that they did not thumb their nose at religion as some people do.
Well, I disagree. I don't know how the Brotherhood of the Sleeper was called by the NPCs in your Gothic, but in the German version it was mainly "sect crackpots" (Sektenspinner). It's, after all, just another religion, with a clear motivation (to get out of the prison) and a named god. And what are they doing? Smoking weed, mainly. I don't know if this isn't thumbing their nose at religion ...
quote:
quote:
I don't believe in a god, and if I'd do, I really wouldn't think of this god as a person.
Who said Innos, Adonos, Beliar were "people"? Of course God is not a "person", and there is no evidence that the people in the Gothic world believe that Innos, Beliar, or Adanos are "regular people".
Well, Vatras tells a story about those three gods, and they were pretty personified, imho.
quote:
quote:
That's why I can accept the presence of "religion" in Gothic - it's totally obvious that it is meant as fiction.
Of course its fiction. All I am saying is that fictional or not, Gothic presents a balanced view of religion or faith. No one is an outright fanatic or hypocrite if they beleive in the Gods. Its just part of their personality.
Fanatic? Cor Kalom.
My point is, that the religion of Innos, Adanos and Beliar isn't a real religion, even in the game, because everybody *knows* (not: believes) there are these three gods. I mean, just wander to an Innos shrine and pray. "Innos thanks you for your prayer" instantly.
The religion even doesn't have a name. |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:28 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Hindukönig
quote:
And I never said Gothic was trying to be "religious". I said that they did not thumb their nose at religion as some people do.
Well, I disagree. I don't know how the Brotherhood of the Sleeper was called by the NPCs in your Gothic, but in the German version it was mainly "sect crackpots" (Sektenspinner). It's, after all, just another religion, with a clear motivation (to get out of the prison) and a named god. And what are they doing? Smoking weed, mainly. I don't know if this isn't thumbing their nose at religion ...
A fair point. But they were clearly praying to a false God. And in the Add-on one of the Water Mages (Myxir I think) tells the hero that they were under the influence of the swampweed more than anything else. BTW, they were called the "Sect Loonies" in the English version. 
quote:
My point is, that the religion of Innos, Adanos and Beliar isn't a real religion, even in the game, because everybody *knows* (not: believes) there are these three gods. I mean, just wander to an Innos shrine and pray. "Innos thanks you for your prayer" instantly.
The religion even doesn't have a name.
Look, I see what you are saying. But I still feel that Gothic is different because it makes it very clear that God exists and many people are God-fearing. The Innos belief is very Christian-like with the talk of "forgiving of sins" and such. A lot of games wouldn't even dare go there.
I mean look, its not a big deal to me if games don't have religion in them or even if they poke fun at it a little bit. We are both Thief fans (your avatar, my signature) and you know that the Hammers & Mechanists create a cynical and negative view of religions.
I just thought it was cool that in Gothic God is part of many people's everyday lives and it is not looked upon as being "uncool" in any way.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:28 pm |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
[Brotherhood of the Sleeper]
A fair point. But they were clearly praying to a false God.
Hehe - depends on the view. And the Sleeper being a demon was clear only after some time, but they were insulted before that.
quote:
Look, I see what you are saying. But I still feel that Gothic is different because it makes it very clear that God exists and many people are God-fearing. The Innos belief is very Christian-like with the talk of "forgiving of sins" and such.
Mmh, wasn't sin-forgiving only for the guys in the monastery? I wouldn't compare Christianity and Gothic this much - there isn't anything like that Jesus-thing (perhaps the nameless one will take that part), and you have to do work for Innos (or donate money). As a Christian, you just have to "accept Jesus as your lord", IIRC.
quote:
I mean look, its not a big deal to me if games don't have religion in them or even if they poke fun at it a little bit. We are both Thief fans (your avatar, my signature) and you know that the Hammers & Mechanists create a cynical and negative view of religions.
You may be right. Perhaps this is why I like the religion in Thief 1&2 more. :P |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 4:18 pm |
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Jazzy_s
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 115
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I think Gothic is a special game because it offers absolute freedom even in relegious sphere, it's very interesting I noticed that different people play the game different it moastly depends on their character, for example i'm a calm non violent person i try even in game to akt good and fair.
For instance let's take the case with Sarah ( the marchant in the market place in G2) whom did you put to jail Sarah or Cantar???
As you see Hindukönig thinks that it's better to pray to Beliar, I like better Inos (and by the way if you want to get bonuses from praying you must do it just once a day) |
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Sat Dec 17, 2005 5:21 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
In my opinion, Adanos has more the role of a real god more the other two. There are no statues of him where you get bonusses. You don't really notice his actions. Innos for example shows his power many times, with the Eye, the bonusses at the shrines, etc. Adanos is there, but doesn't interfere with the lives of the people.
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
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Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:13 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Sem
Adanos is there, but doesn't interfere with the lives of the people.
Aside from going 'old testament' on those who made him mad in the past. 
I think that Adanos is interfering by directing his priests and members of the Ring of Water to bring balance to the world. Adanos is more subtle about it than the other gods.
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Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:58 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
More or like the god(s) that we worship today you mean. God is also more or less interfering by directing priests, bishops etc.
_________________
"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:04 pm |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
quote:
Originally posted by Jazzy_s
As you see Hindukönig thinks that it's better to pray to Beliar
No, I didn't say that. |
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Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:16 am |
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