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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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I haven't played BG (nor will I) since I'm no fan of fantasy settings...a prison like Gothic has isn't exactly your typical fantasy setting. 
Role playing is also my definition,the problem is that the deeper the story,the less you can RP.
What I mean is with games like Gothic/PS:T you have an evolving storyline and hence it's more acting than RP'ing imho.
It's of course only *my* definition and view.
I also think that it's a tad wrong to control more than one char in a RPG.
I mean,you can ask for help but never control another person -spells excluded of course .(this was fine with Gothic though)
So...imho some RPG's could be defined as tactics rather than RPG's since you'll use tactics to use the NPC's strong points.(in battles...just like with C&C,Fallout Tactics and other games like 'em)
RTS and tactics are the only genres I have still to find a game I like with...so the tactical elements that are part of a lot of RPG's might be the reason I don't like most RPG's...(FO does of course also take a bit of planning during combat,but you can't do anything about your NPC's decisions...for good and bad,but it's the way I like it...)
Just an evolution on my preferences and views. |
Wed Jan 16, 2002 9:04 am |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Anonymous
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Good luck taking on the final fights with 55 strength WITHOUT using magic. Its really frustrating...
Anonymous
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95
Rainstorm
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Then you are more used to Computer RPG's than real Pen & Paper rpg's. Real PnP games doesnt have to have any points at all. Its all about playing a character the way you like to play it.
> What I meant was for instance the old mine caving in
> and you helping free the free mine.
> Get focus stone first and then get the rest of focus stones...
> go into orc town...and so on.
> In contrast FO2:
> Modoc vs. ghost farm can be done by helping them
> work together or kill the entire ghost farm by
> saying they're evil.
> Vault city vs. Gecko...similar thing,kill
> Gecko or help them fix the plant.
Just becouse Fallout 2 is larger than Gothic, it doesnt meant that you do not have options in Gothic...
Warn Mordrag, or help him
Give Diego the list, or Lares
Learn how to do acrobatics, or prove that you stolen the Reiciphy to impress Fingers
Make a choice in what camp you wish to join
> Well...I guess this depends on how you define evil...
> What I meant was I can't really do anything other
> than help Diego,Gorn,Lester and
> (whatever fire magician was called).(and Xardas of course)
> Helping them is imho doing good without any option to
> ignore/do it other way.(due to the story driven nature
> of the game which is exactly what I think makes it an
> adventure instead of RPG)
Evil for me, is to ignore others needs, just using others needs to get what you want, or never give anything for free, always expecting something in return.
In Gothic, your need is to get out from the Barrier. You will do whatever you can to get hold of the people that may help you to get out of there.
As evil, you do not help them, you satisfy their needs ONLY to get what you want from THEM... But in their backs you beat up their friends, and steal all their stuff.
> Gothic is pretty linear and its freedom is
> the ability to explore.(not a bad game to explore...)
> You have one already defined PC which you can't
> change anything about for starters.
> Apart from stuff like skinning and str,perc and
> mana you're forced to spend at least 10xp for a skill.
The real non-linearity is in the first chapter. You still have the possibility to do quests in a certain order. Compare this to when you learn about who's responsible for the happenings in Fallout 2. Only difference is that the first part in Fallout 2 is a hellofalot larger. It takes a couple of weeks to go through Fallout 2 - doing everything. It takes less than a week to run through Gothic - doing everything.
Then you cannot compare Fallout 2 character - creation to ANYTHING else. Not Gothic, not anything. There are no game in existance that contains that much alternatives in character creation. Its just not fair to do it, so dont.
In real life PnP the story is just as great as Fallout. The red-thread is there, but you have a TOTAL freedom in whatever way you choose to reach the end.
Shrapnel
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I cannot say it better myself.
Best Regards
JemyM
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 10:10 am |
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Guest
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puppet, mersil:
Do you know by chance what happant to rebelacts forum, and what is going on with Ultimate Blade and Blade 2?
- Merz |
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 10:51 am |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
On 2002-01-16 04:10, JemyM wrote:
Then you are more used to Computer RPG's than real Pen & Paper rpg's. Real PnP games doesnt have to have any points at all. Its all about playing a character the way you like to play it.
Yep,I haven't played a PnP one at all...I tend to take it for granted that I'm referring to CRPG's when I'm in a forum like this,sorry.
So to clarify,I've been -and will continue to- talking about CRPG's.
quote:
Warn Mordrag, or help him
Give Diego the list, or Lares
Learn how to do acrobatics, or prove that you stolen the Reiciphy to impress Fingers
Make a choice in what camp you wish to join
When you take note to Lares he'll tell you to take it to Diego...so in the end Diego will get it anyway.
About joining camps,yes it's an option,but I haven't seen any difference with it as far as how the game evolves.
What I mean is,why would the sect camp trust me to get the stone for them when I'm part of the new camp...?
I could talk to the gurus even though they were very picky when I was joining their camp.(this was at my first visit after joining NC...so noone there should've known who I was and the gurus should've just grunted imho)
Again the deeper story hinders the game from evolving in another way than when you're with the sect camp.
It's not that I see it as a problem with the game since the story evolution was what I played it for.(to see what's next)
It did however hinder me in sinking into the role of the PC,I played it more as I would an adventure/FPS and not as I would a RPG.
quote:
The real non-linearity is in the first chapter. You still have the possibility to do quests in a certain order.
Agree...and this is due to the deeper story which I explained in my former post was in my opinion limiting the RP part and also the non linearity of the game.(not only Gothic of course...all games with a strong evolving story)
quote:
Then you cannot compare Fallout 2 character - creation to ANYTHING else. Not Gothic, not anything. There are no game in existance that contains that much alternatives in character creation. Its just not fair to do it, so dont.
Since the two FO's are the only RPG's I love it's unfortunately all I can compare with...
May as you say not be fair though,but it's what I'd like to see in a RPG...(it's even what would make *me* see it as a true RPG)
Maybe Morrowind/Arx fatalis/Project ego/Wasteland Wolf has enough to make me like them.(so I can increase the numbers of RPG's I like...wouldn't mind it a bit since they make an impression other games can't since you sink into them in a different way...)
What made me really like Gothic.(it's after FO's,Quake1 and Unreal my fav game) is:
The exploring of the nice looking world of Gothic.
The small things like frying meat,lighting torches along the way and the "living" NPC's.
It dragged me into the game and it has been really fun playing it...and I'm eagerly waiting for PB's next release.
So my complaints aren't supposed to be complaints,they're simply me stating my opinion about what I would call an RPG. |
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:16 am |
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Eddie
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 01 Jan 2002
Posts: 25
Location: Ireland |
Hiya Puppet, Just getting back to your first post in this thread, a similar thing happened to me last night, I got the focus stone with Milton and headed of towards the next point in the map and ran into a pack of Orc dogs beneath a tower, Im a 4th circle Fire-Mage and I stayed at the foot of the tower dropping Fire Spells on them, I killed a few and left them to climb up the ladder to the top of the tower, found nothing and came down again, I looked over the edge to see if the Orc Dogs were still there and they were...some of them...suddenly, standing beside me was...yeah one of the Orc dogs, He'd found a small path 'round the other side of the hill...he looked at me for a second......
I felt exactly like you did, it really made the episode stand out for me
_________________
The Ruckus Brigade
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 2:24 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Yep,I haven't played a PnP one at all...I tend to take it for granted that I'm referring to CRPG's when I'm in a forum like this,sorry.
So to clarify,I've been -and will continue to- talking about CRPG's.
Im trying to compare real RPG's with computer-rpgs ...
When we talk about Computer RPG's it include everything from Diablo to Wizardry...
quote:
When you take note to Lares he'll tell you to take it to Diego...so in the end Diego will get it anyway.
Yep, but you do betray Diego.
quote:
About joining camps,yes it's an option,but I haven't seen any difference with it as far as how the game evolves.
What I mean is,why would the sect camp trust me to get the stone for them when I'm part of the new camp...?
I could talk to the gurus even though they were very picky when I was joining their camp.(this was at my first visit after joining NC...so noone there should've known who I was and the gurus should've just grunted imho)
Again the deeper story hinders the game from evolving in another way than when you're with the sect camp.
Even if you do join a camp, you do it mostly to dig deeper into their domains, and in the end, all you want is to get out of the barrier. You still have the choice, however.
quote:
It's not that I see it as a problem with the game since the story evolution was what I played it for.(to see what's next)
It did however hinder me in sinking into the role of the PC,I played it more as I would an adventure/FPS and not as I would a RPG.
I made up my mind rather quickly about things, then I played the 'character' after that. In real RPG's its up to you who you are, not the game. Sometimes you get a character that is already 'pre-made', but in the case of Gothic you do not start with any characteristics at all, not even a name.
quote:
Since the two FO's are the only RPG's I love it's unfortunately all I can compare with...
May as you say not be fair though,but it's what I'd like to see in a RPG...(it's even what would make *me* see it as a true RPG)
Maybe Morrowind/Arx fatalis/Project ego/Wasteland Wolf has enough to make me like them.(so I can increase the numbers of RPG's I like...wouldn't mind it a bit since they make an impression other games can't since you sink into them in a different way...)
Only Fallout lets you play everything from a manic-depressive teenage Ninja, an alcoholic middle-aged boxer and a uncharismatic but supremely intelligent scientist... and still be able to solve the game in YOUR way.
quote:
What made me really like Gothic.(it's after FO's,Quake1 and Unreal my fav game) is:
The exploring of the nice looking world of Gothic.
The small things like frying meat,lighting torches along the way and the "living" NPC's.
It dragged me into the game and it has been really fun playing it...and I'm eagerly waiting for PB's next release.
So my complaints aren't supposed to be complaints,they're simply me stating my opinion about what I would call an RPG.
Its the freedom that made me like gothic, and its the freedom that made me like Fallout. That ingredient might be the one I taste the most, therefore I compare the two, even if they are very different.
Best Regards
JemyM
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:06 pm |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
Im trying to compare real RPG's with computer-rpgs ...
When we talk about Computer RPG's it include everything from Diablo to Wizardry...
K,I can't compare to PnP ones since I haven't played them.
Diablo I haven't played either...but even though generally called a RPG I put it in the hack'n'slash genre meaning it's more of a combat game.(this is prob. where Gothic fits too...but it has a depth to it with its story,so I put it as an adventure with RPG elements)
Black Isle/Bioware makes RPG's.(even though like I wrote I don't really see most of them as proper RPG's either)
quote:
Even if you do join a camp, you do it mostly to dig deeper into their domains, and in the end, all you want is to get out of the barrier. You still have the choice, however.
Yep,but I'd still want the actual thing of being part of a camp matter...
quote:
I made up my mind rather quickly about things, then I played the 'character' after that. In real RPG's its up to you who you are, not the game. Sometimes you get a character that is already 'pre-made', but in the case of Gothic you do not start with any characteristics at all, not even a name.
True,all you get to know is that you're a prisoner with a mission.
But changing the char into a thief/warrior and so on doesn't really change the gameplay.(apart from how to battle baddies)
What I mean is you can change some things,but in the end you'd still get the same missions to solve. |
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:55 pm |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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Stupid connection....double post...
[ This Message was edited by: Rainstorm on 2002-01-16 13:00 ] |
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 6:57 pm |
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puppet
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 Jan 2002
Posts: 14
Location: Wisconsin USA |
Hiya Eddie....hehehe those moments are pretty cool. I started again and want to give the mage a shot.
Anonymous.....I don't know what all transpired over @RA. Too bad, too.....they had a really good first release in Blade. I kinda like the Adventure/Action type stuff I guess. Nothin' like a few rollin' heads.
I'm not sure about their sequel....maybe Eddie knows somethin'. |
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Wed Jan 16, 2002 11:28 pm |
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