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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
| Greetings everyone, both old and new.. |
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It's been quite a while since I've been around, but here I am again. This time due to the same reason as last time: Gothic(and the crowd goes: "What a surprise!"). I've been too busy working/studying to even play Gothic the past months, but now it's Christmas so I can stick around for a while. And finally, I get to play the translated add-on(great job translation team, GREAT job).
Instead of posting 50 posts in 50 dead threads(gravedigging), I'll just post my thoughts here(even though I have been away for a while, I've still been watching you.. lurking in the dark.. ).
First and foremost, the translation to the add-on. This is simply amazing work, and the whole community owes these guys A LOT. To be honest, I would rather have downloaded the add-on(piracy), used the mod, and then donoted half the sum to PiranhaBytes, and half the sum to the mod-team. I actually would have done this if PB/mod-team had had a way of donating money to them(the mod team consists of Xerxes and a few others if I'm not terribly misstaken, but they should have a single account for donations, so that grateful fans could show them how much they appreciate the work). The reason why I would do this is simple: They are the people we have to thank for being able to play the add-on at all, not JoWood, not Atari, but these few guys. Brilliant work!
I have(of course) a few comments on Gothic 3 as well, here we go:
1) Graphics. I like good graphics. Yes I do. I will have to buy a new computer to stand even the slightest chance of being able to play Gothic 3, but who cares. My only concern about this is how our old friends(Gorn, Lester, Lee etc) will look. Of course they will look somewhat like themselves, but will they look enough like themselves?
2) Voices. Diego. Need I say more? I think not, and I hope(and pray) that they pull another stunt like this one. Diego was turned into a sissy-boy from a tough-rouge kinda guy.
3) Gameplay. I understand why PB has redone the whole system, and turned it into a mouse-based system(due to a lot of bad response on the old system), but I don't like it one bit. In fact, I can't stand "click-em-to-death" games. What feeling do you honestly get from clicking on your opponent instead of actually controlling each swing? If you are having problems timing your swings, you haven't played the game enough, so practire more..
4) World. It is supposed to be a HUGE world, which might be good. But it doesn't have to be. Accoring to PB, they now have spend less time on each NPC due to the high amount of NPCs. This is bad. The really unique thing about Gothic is not the it looks, or how you fight, or the main character, it is how the world FEELS. It is intimate. You get to know people, their personality, you see them walk around doing things, and they have a certain depth no other game has. This is UNIQUE to Gothic, and if they remove that by spending too much time mass-creating NPCs, they will lose the whole Gothic-feeling. I am very worried by this.
5) Horses. Forget them. We tried it in Sacred, and they were crap(you use them for transportation, not combat). Simply put: It is not worth the time and effort it would take to implement them properly, because an interly new fighting system would have to be created simply due to horses, and they are not worth THAT much. Keep focus on normal fighting, and getting the "Gothic feeling" in the world, not all kinds of new gizmos, and I'll be a happy camper.
Please comment if you have something to say.
Nice to see you all again! =) |
Sat Dec 25, 2004 2:00 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
| Re: Greetings everyone, both old and new.. |
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quote:
Originally posted by Maylander
It's been quite a while since I've been around, but here I am again. This time due to the same reason as last time: Gothic(and the crowd goes: "What a surprise!"). I've been too busy working/studying to even play Gothic the past months, but now it's Christmas so I can stick around for a while. And finally, I get to play the translated add-on(great job translation team, GREAT job).
Welcome back man! Can't say I hang around a lot either, but I do try to check the board daily to see what's up.
quote:
First and foremost, the translation to the add-on. This is simply amazing work, and the whole community owes these guys A LOT. To be honest,
Wholeheartedly agree. I was one of the first ones to play the translated Addon and have sung the praises of the group in the past.
With this latest version a lot of typos and sometimes awkward word choices were fixed. It really is a good translation because you still get that "Gothicness" in the dialog. SO you know they interpreted what was in the original German quite welll.
quote:
1) Graphics. I like good graphics. Yes I do. I will have to buy a new computer to stand even the slightest chance of being able to play Gothic 3, but who cares. My only concern about this is how our old friends(Gorn, Lester, Lee etc) will look. Of course they will look somewhat like themselves, but will they look enough like themselves?
I kinda know what you are talking about. We are used to those faces from the Gothic 1&2 models so I too am curious as to how they will improve on the faces, yet keep them recognizable. I trust them to do the right thing.
quote:
2) Voices. Diego. Need I say more? I think not, and I hope(and pray) that they pull another stunt like this one. Diego was turned into a sissy-boy from a tough-rouge kinda guy.
Yes, if at all possible get the OLD Diego back. If its not possible then get a good imitator (like they did with the hero's voice). 
quote:
3) Gameplay. I understand why PB has redone the whole system, and turned it into a mouse-based system(due to a lot of bad response on the old system), but I don't like it one bit. In fact, I can't stand "click-em-to-death" games. What feeling do you honestly get from clicking on your opponent instead of actually controlling each swing? If you are having problems timing your swings, you haven't played the game enough, so practire more..
While I would certainly be comfortable with another keyboard-centric approach, I don't think going to the mouse would necessarily mean a loss in precision. Again I trust them to work things out so that we loose none of the control we loved in G1 & G2. I'll keep an eye on this.
quote:
4) World. It is supposed to be a HUGE world, which might be good. But it doesn't have to be. Accoring to PB, they now have spend less time on each NPC due to the high amount of NPCs. This is bad. The really unique thing about Gothic is not the it looks, or how you fight, or the main character, it is how the world FEELS. It is intimate. You get to know people, their personality, you see them walk around doing things, and they have a certain depth no other game has. This is UNIQUE to Gothic, and if they remove that by spending too much time mass-creating NPCs, they will lose the whole Gothic-feeling. I am very worried by this.
OK. Now you've hit on exactly what I am worried about in G3. I read this newsbit as well and started to get concerned. Does this mean that NPC schedules will be simplified -- or even worse -- lost? Will they turn it into another barren Morrowind with quantity over quality. Perhaps some groups will be simplified and other more important chars will have more detailed schedules/routines.
At any rate, while I am a bit anxious to see how this turns out, I am again putting my trust in the PB developers. They still have a lot of the same people doing the work as in G1 & G2. That means the *know* why Gothic is special and appealing to so many. They realize that the LIVING WORLD is what they did better than any other game out there. I trust them to keep that feeling at the core of the gameplay.
quote:
5) Horses. Forget them. We tried it in Sacred, and they were crap(you use them for transportation, not combat). Simply put: It is not worth the time and effort it would take to implement them properly, because an interly new fighting system would have to be created simply due to horses, and they are not worth THAT much. Keep focus on normal fighting, and getting the "Gothic feeling" in the world, not all kinds of new gizmos, and I'll be a happy camper.
Exactly. If it becomes too burdensome to do, do not waste time on it if it will take away from what you say are the core elements -- combat, living world, and that intangible "Gothic feeling".
This is not to say the developers shouldn't try new things. Just that some Gothic staples are "sacred" now and shouldn't be tossed away.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:20 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Long time no see. I don't think I've spoken with you since the whole G2-demo-thing. If I remember correctly you were around when the demo was translated into English and "broken"(getting past the invisible barriers in the demo, to play more of the game). Doing okay?
Basically we agree on everything, but you mentioned something I completely forgot - trust PB. I am very worried about the whole "losing the Gothic feeling" issue, although I guess we can trust PB to do the right thing. It is just that I feel that we already lost a bit of the feeling with Gothic 2(at least before the add-on). It wasn't as intimate, and you didn't really get to know anyone other than the people you already knew. Most of the new characters were without any real depth, and if the G3 world is as much bigger as they claim, I don't think they can make everyone as "special" as they were back in G1. Oh well, we'll just have to wait and see! =)
Good to see you again! |
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Sat Dec 25, 2004 8:18 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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Well thanks for bumming me out on Christmas 
I have not heard some of this disturbing news about G3. If the controls are changed too mouse, I guess I'll not be playing it. Clickety clickety click ain't my cup of tea, and is EXACTLY why I loved Gothic....it took skill and you are rewarded for more skill. If they are making the game bigger, but sacrificing the Gothic experience....it is a HUGE mistake. I would normally agree about trusting the devs, but the pubslishers can make it tough for them to do the game like it should be. I'd gladly wait a couple extra years if need...as long as they did the game RIGHT and retain the gothic feel/ depth of play.
I doubt a publisher can truly understand how this game affects it players. I've never thought twice about characters from other games, but consider several of them in gothic as my friend....and I actually miss them. PLEASE don't screw up the best game series of all time! |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:31 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
I completely agree, I'm worried about the exact same things. The keyboard way of playing the game is excellent as it is, and making the game too big and with mouse will turn it into Morrowind, which is my biggest fear(Gothic is, for me at least, superior to Morrowind in every way), but I guess only time will tell what the outcome is. I really hope PB know what they are doing, and they have so far, so we'll just have to continue to trust them. They are, after all, the ones we have to thank for the "the best game series of all times"(I totally agree on this one as well)! |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 11:37 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Welcome back Maylander!
I wonder where you (= plural) found all these "infos". The sources I have seen donīt say that these things will be changed in the way you described.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 6:18 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Sure they do, I got a lot of it from interviews and the great Gothic 3 site whose link is in the "official gothic 3 information" thread on top of this forum. It's great, and you will find most of the information I've commented on on that page.
At least the mouse-thing, the size of the world, the NPC problem(can't spend as much time on each NPC), and the question to have horses can be found under "facts" or interviews posted through RPGdot.com or that page(these two pages are my primary information on G3).
I think it's http://www.gothic3.net |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 8:25 pm |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
say it isn't so, i can't believe they would change the control scheme, i know alot of ppl didn't like it gothic 2 , but i didn't think it bothered so many of them, the controls r fantastic sure it's hard at first but u get the hang of it, besides it will completley change the gothic world, if in gothic , and gothic 2 u could go anywhere in the first chaper all u had to do was fight harder monsters, and if u were good at the controls u could defeat orc elite on really low levels, and didn't have to wait to higher xp quest to level up.
also i for one took great satsfaction from my fighting skills, hell one of the high lights of the game for me was beating up Sentenza and Bolco as guildless, leather armor fighter(after losing countless times of course  ).
as for horses, it will be nice to cover distances easily and fast, but if u had to dismount each time u had to fight a monster it will prob grow tiresome, so i say if u can fight on top of them fine if not lose em.
_________________
"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:07 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
I totally agree, the fighting system is simply amazing!
I both hope, and believe, that PB will add the option of using the old controls. I know for certain(after reading interviews etc) that they claim to have created a "mouse based interface" at least, and due to heavy critisism from people who hardly tried the game, they've probably made the fighting easier, but hopefully they will implement the option to do it the good ol' way, which is harder, but also more rewarding if you master it! |
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Sun Dec 26, 2004 10:28 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
So is your German good enough to understand the original "G3 Facts" on Gothic3.net? The English translation is terrible. Half the points are mistranslated - and this is a conservative number.
And even then, are you sure their German summary is correct? Some points may be overinterpreted or outdated by now.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Mon Dec 27, 2004 12:29 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
My German is actually pretty good, for a Norwegian! 
Seriously though, of course I don't know any hard facts about Gothic 3, but neither do anyone else around here. If this information is wrong, you should delete the whole "fact thread about G3" which is a sticky on the top of the forum because most of that information either comes from gothic3.net, one of the guys from gothic3.net, or the other way around. Nearly everything in that thread is already on gothic3.net, and was there long before it was even mentioned in here, so they seem pretty up-to-date to me. At least as up-to-date as any other source out there.
If you simply go through that thread thoroughly, you will find all the "information" I've put in this thread as well.
Example:
The NPC Schedules (Daily routines, etc.) have been simplified to allow for a larger amount/vatiety of NPC characters to be inserted in the game. The method of inserting NPCs as seen in the earlier games proved too time consuming to use on the scale they want for the third game. As noted here.
From the very first post in the thread about "official information". This clearly states the thing that worries me the most, a world without enough depth, but as I've also said - trust PB, they have always said that a "living world" is one of their primary objectives, so we'll just have to wait and see..
Another example:
-U can use the mouse in the inventory.
From the second post in the same thread. This means that you have a mouse-based interface. It does not mean that fighting will be done by mouse, but in the same thread you will also find that fighting has been "simplified", which is something that also worries me because I like a game that actually rewards you for mastering the combat, which requires a lot of practice, instead of 3 hours of playing and voila - you now master the combat. But again I said, and I still say, trust PB.
I could go on like this, but the post is already long enough, hehe. My point isn't that we shouldn't trust PB, I've already stated that several times, but devs do make misstakes, and so I worry. I've seen my share of good series gone bad because of too much change, and even though I trust PB, I can't seem to shake off this feeling that G3 will be too different from the other 2. I don't mind changing the graphics, or the gameplay, or the interface, or the NPC daily rounds.. but doing it all at once? That is what worries me, and I'm afraid there is nothing I can do about that until the game is released(or at least Jaz, you and a few others have tried it and can confirm to the rest of us that: YES, PB HAS DONE IT AGAIN! I assume that you will be one of the first around to play it, and I'm already waiting for your response on it).
If you know something we don't, please say so. If what I've stated above, or in this post is wrong in some way, just correct me. Also, if you find that any of this information is inaccurate in any way, please let everyone know in the "official information" thread, because that would mean that the so-called "official information" is not, in fact, official information.
So cheer up Gorath, you seem a bit cranky today. I'm only worried because I love the series so much! ; I'm not spreading false rumors, only things that I've found around this very forum, and on Gothic3.com(and saying my opinion about it). Nice to see you by the way, it's been a long time! |
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Mon Dec 27, 2004 1:05 am |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Maylander
My German is actually pretty good, for a Norwegian!
I know.
quote:
Seriously though, of course I don't know any hard facts about Gothic 3, but neither do anyone else around here. If this information is wrong, you should delete the whole "fact thread about G3" which is a sticky on the top of the forum because most of that information either comes from gothic3.net, one of the guys from gothic3.net, or the other way around. Nearly everything in that thread is already on gothic3.net, and was there long before it was even mentioned in here, so they seem pretty up-to-date to me. At least as up-to-date as any other source out there.
That thread was a huge step forward at a time when a now-member of Gothic3.net flooded our forum with a gazillion threads full of rumors mixed with half-truths about G3. Now itīs 4 months old.
quote:
If you know something we don't, please say so. If what I've stated above, or in this post is wrong in some way, just correct me. Also, if you find that any of this information is inaccurate in any way, please let everyone know in the "official information" thread, because that would mean that the so-called "official information" is not, in fact, official information.
Mouse interface is simply standard. Combat and NPC schedules have been clarified by PB a long time ago. I have neither the time nor the motivation to discuss this. Just visit the German fan sites.
Gothic3.net is a good site, but their facts list is not 100% complete and translations arenīt exactly their core competence.
quote:
So cheer up Gorath, you seem a bit cranky today.
Actually I am. I donīt like Christmas.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Mon Dec 27, 2004 2:28 am |
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-Jekyll
Village Leader
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
Posts: 87
Location: Wilmington, NC USA |
When devs see complaints of certain aspects of a game ( i.e. keyboard-only combat controls ) they tend to want to make it more newb friendly so it will appeal to the masses. When I first played G1, I thought the combat was a bit awkward at first, but after I got used to it, I began to see the beauty in it. Now I cant imagine playing the game with the mouse.
Im an avid fan of the Tribes series. Tribes 1 & 2 both had a massive learning curve, so it didnt easily appeal to the masses. But, it did create a large community of dedicated Tribes players. The new people that bought the game had a hard time hard time mastering the controls because it was an online-only game. Therefore, they would join servers only to become frustrated and eventually quit because they couldnt easily do what the other players were doing. Once the 3rd installment of the Tribes series came out, they over simplified the game in an attempt to gain mass appeal and completely alienated the hardcore Tribes players. The end result is a game that has gone straight to the bargain bin after only three months on the shelves. It was a massive failure on every level. All because they wanted to gain mass appeal and change what made the game great in the first place.
I only hope that PB can learn from games like Tribes and stick to what has made Gothic great from the beginning. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2004 5:45 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
-Jekyll has a good point. Devs doing something to appeal to the masses is not unheard of. The very reason because I worry so much is because I remember what Jon Van Caneghem and his crew did to the Might and Magic series, simply because the "had to renew". They ruined it. They had been working on it for 10 years, and then they ruined it because they wanted to "appeal to the masses". I feel sorry for the entire Might and Magic community(and its time, it was huge.. I should know, I was a part of it).
You don't like Christmas ey? That explains a lot, hehe. It seems this flooding may have something to do with you being "cranky" about this as well.. ? I can understand that, such flooding is always a suffering for everyone but the flooder himself.
Anyhow, I'll stick to the things I find in interviews then(quoting KaiRo, Mike and so on should be sufficient to say it's valid information).. |
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Mon Dec 27, 2004 11:26 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
The game will certainly not be mouse only, because in another interview (long live the vague interviews) PB said that you will be able to learn special moves or combo's. Pretty hard to make a combo with only left and right mouse button.
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Wed Dec 29, 2004 9:27 am |
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