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Gerad
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 38
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| Script problems in gothic |
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Gothic was a really good game and thus I am looking forward to gothic 2.
Of several flaws in the first version perhaps the most blatant was the script problem/improper use of language.
Throughout the game the script did appear to have been written by foreigners (it was...) but that’s ok because the game was good I could overlook it.
The problem was minor compared to a game like resident evil.
However I always wonder why not ask an English speaker (a FLUENT one!) to proof read the script???
I’m just wondering if the next game fixes this problem and has a fluent English speaker proofread the script, over all the voice acting was ok…
But the script needed work.
Heck I would be willing to proofread the script for free,
My advice to foreign game companies is if your going to release a game in the US have someone from the US proofread the script.
I guess it doesn’t matter, still such easy problem to fix does anyone think Gothic 2 will have a better script? Err for the English version that is.
The problem isn`t that bad but why settle for mediocrity? |
Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:19 am |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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What bothered me more were the occasional utterly stupid script twists. A world full of "transform into meatbug" spells (apparently meatbugs get it all in GothicWorld) and noone ever thought to use one to travel the blatant hiatus in the wall of the monestary?! Why, no wonder they think I'm a hero!
Same thing with Xardas and his invincible golems. The mages direct you to the library to find clues on how to defeat these horrors. In the library, the most popular volumes are on the table... and guess what... the lot are about golemocide. Apparently the fate of GothicWorld is in the hands of lobotomised mages. On second thought... forget about that complaint, it's frightening realistic.
Anyway, the ultimate quest in Gothic is not about defeating the Sleeper, it's about the hero finding out that GothicWorld is not a prisoner camp, but an institute for the mentally disturbed. Magic barrier... yeah right. And let me guess... that's not the Valium locker, but the temple of the Sleeper demon, right? |
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Sat Oct 19, 2002 11:13 am |
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RobKob
Head Merchant
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 73
Location: Thuringia, Germany |
@ghola
Although your observations are correct, I don't understand your complaints. I mean, one could really think that you know no other games ( or movies, series and books ) beside Gothic. 
If a game has riddles, they have to be solvable by a normal person. But this also means that they should be solvable by the majority of NPCs in the game. But the plot demands that they can't. So it's either realism or gameplay. Most games have to sacrifice some realism to make the game playable. Because of this ( and some other reasons ) gameworlds are often drastically scaled down in size, resulting in CITEIS with only several dozens of houses etc.
Other genres that are prone to logical slips are TV and book series. That's because of their long storylines and their increasingly complicated background. And if the different episodes or books are written by different people, then it means almost inevitable chaos. Star Trek, for example, has a lot of problems because of its very powerful technology.
OK, to sum it up. Unrealistically easy riddles and tasks are a common thing in computer games, and so are characters in games and series etc who sometimes ignore the obvious. In the end plot, fun gameplay etc always take precedence over realism.
Bi La Kaifa. 
_________________
"Time to toss the dice." Matrim Cauthon |
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Sun Oct 20, 2002 2:25 pm |
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SirDeity
Gothic's Loyal Hero
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 602
Location: Maine, USA |
All your complaints are debatable. The script errors.. umm, think about it... The game is based in a time when men fought with swords and armor. How proper can you really expect their English to be? And as far as proper English goes, you do realize that much of today's words in the English dictionary and so called "proper" usage of words was not even developed until the turn of the century? Most of the English language today in America has been altered by other foreign lagnuages. "Old English Text" is barely comprehendable by the average modern day American. Take that and fill in the gaps, in the environment inside the barrier, do you really think they had time for English teachers? School? Sure, before they were thrown in they were taught how to speak, but I would argue, only by their parents.
Your complaints about the script are mostly futile, as anyone with an imagination would probably disagree.
I think the last poster pretty much put the other complaints at rest. I'll just make a suggestion. If you want to play a game that is more realistic, stray away from RPG games. RPG games are usually created with the intention of allowing the players to temporarily escape into a world of fantasy, one that is better than the one we currently live in.
P.S. If you desire a fun-filled realistic game you can actually believe as fact, without the requirement of an imagination, perhaps you should buy the game called, "Medal of Honor." It is a great game, but completely different than Gothic. It is based on a major war I am sure your educated minds will be familiar with.
Last edited by SirDeity on Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:59 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
| Re: Script problems in gothic |
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quote:
Originally posted by Gerad
Throughout the game the script did appear to have been written by foreigners (it was...) but thats ok because the game was good I could overlook it.
[...]
However I always wonder why not ask an English speaker (a FLUENT one!) to proof read the script???
Im just wondering if the next game fixes this problem and has a fluent English speaker proofread the script, over all the voice acting was ok
FYI, the voice production was made by AllInTheGame Ltd.
quote:
My advice to foreign game companies is if your going to release a game in the US have someone from the US proofread the script.
Because you used the word 'foreign' quite often: foreign is relative. An American company is foreign in any other country than the USA.
quote:
I guess it doesnt matter, still such easy problem to fix does anyone think Gothic 2 will have a better script? Err for the English version that is.
The problem isn`t that bad but why settle for mediocrity?
Money? 
No, seriously. Itīs a common problem. In 9 out of ten cases the translation isnīt as good as the original. Possible reasons are budget, not enough knowledge of the taret marketsī language, lazyness, ...
I also hope PB and JoWooD pay enough attention to the translations.
_________________
Webmaster GothicDot |
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Sun Oct 20, 2002 11:22 pm |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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Apparently my wonderful irony was wasted on the heroes roaming this forum. I'll have to use my fist of smileys rune more often, I suppose.
Anyway, nothing written by you guys seems to disprove or invalidate my remarks in the first two semi-serious paragraphs of my previous post.
FWIW, RobKob, your comparative (TV/book/other RPG's) arguments are fallacious. There's always something equally bad or worse to compare against, but that doesn't prove the subject of defense right or great. And to both of you, even fantasy follows logic, in fact it follows a rather strict and simple logic, which is one of the reasons why we enjoy it.
The examples I mentioned are simply an indication of sloppy/rushed script writing and would have been extremely easy to avoid. In the monestary example, there was no reason for Gorn to mention that people tried but did not manage to pass the gate, because they could have made Gorn say something much more credible. Something that would have made SENSE in a world full of ladders when facing a sub 3 metres/10 feet high wall.  Just think for one second and you too will find a more reasonable argument than the one presented by the script writer.... and why, you're not even a professional script writer! In other words, the incredibility could have been avoided at no extra cost, but was not. See what I mean?
Suffice it to say that this bugged me, especially because some other aspects of Gothic are downright brilliant. It's not unlike a Porsche with crappy brakes would bug me... but only at the time I try to use them |
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Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:48 am |
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RobKob
Head Merchant
Joined: 20 Aug 2002
Posts: 73
Location: Thuringia, Germany |
@ghola
Oops. I didn't notice that you were just ironic. Your post seemed to be very cynical which led me to believe that you really meant what you said. You should definitely use more smilies to avoid such misunderstandings.
My comparison of Gothic to other games, series etc. was not intended as an excuse for its logical errors etc. but to show that this is a normal thing. Because you seemed so exceptionally outraged about it. And I, too, have the opinion that excusing faults by pointing out things that are worse isn't good. It hampers advancement. ( OTOH sometimes you have to accept things, if there are no better alternatives. E.g. someone once said: "The democracy is a horrible form of gvernment, but we have nothing better." or something similar.  )
Well, I now have to admit that I never even wondered about why nobody ever used a ladder to overcome the wall of the monastary.  However, what puzzles me is the barrier. I mean, all three mines are quite near to the edge of the barrier, and supposedly it was meant to be much smaller. Also, why were the guards so surprised. Were they not supposed to be trapped in the barrier. But if only the prisoners should have been trapped, the king would have had to negotiate with them anyway, although it seemed like an unfortunate and unexpected turn of events. Perhaps the Sleepers presence not only altered the size of the brrier but also its properties. Perhaps it was supposed to be more controllable. Or it's all just a glaring error.
_________________
"Time to toss the dice." Matrim Cauthon |
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Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:17 pm |
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SirDeity
Gothic's Loyal Hero
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 602
Location: Maine, USA |
There are many examples of script "errors" throughout the game. As has been said several times, in the creation of Gothic there was a shortage of money, and time. Even if these minor script "errors" wouldn't have required much money to fix, or even none to prevent, there is still the burden of time. If I remember correctly, Gothic 1 had cut the end date so closely, that only one person was responsible for desiging the final chapter of the game. Normally each chapter would require several people to focus on different tasks. The designers had so much to finnish before the deadline that it left only one person to concentrate on the final chapter.
Most script "errors" can be reasoned with if you apply a bit of imagination. Realistically, you can't expect your character to know everything about everything, right? Maybe there was a belief that whoever passed the gate without solving the riddle would be killed? I recall there being several boulders differentiating in size to the left of the gates. Perhaps Gomez sent a small number of his guards to solve the riddle. They could not figure out how to open the gates, so they attempted another way to enter. After a paralyzing battle against the Razors protecting the outer parameters of the gates, there stood only a few of the men who originally set out. Those few men decided to try to get pass the gate by gathering boulders and stacking them up. The plan worked, they all made it across to the other side, but there awaited a Shadow Beast that gobbled them all up. Gomez awaited their return only to find that they would not. A rumor quickly spread amoung the general population of the camp that the gates were cursed, and any man that went near would disapear. Its obvious the Razors would have eating both flesh and bone of the remaining corpses. Its also obvious the Shadow Beast is large enough to swallow a man whole. There could be any number of possible explanations...
One of the greatest things about this game is it leaves gaps like this one for you to fill with your own imagination. "Thought is not enough to satisfy curiousity, that is where the imagination plays its essential role in most things." -fictional character in a movie |
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Tue Oct 22, 2002 8:20 pm |
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Gerad
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 38
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Uck perhaps script problems was wrong term to use
I should say dialouge...
The characters spoke odd at some points and inncorrectly ANY enlish speaker of any background would agree.
I mean a southern back water hick is going to speak proper in the sense of logic of speech, purpose of speech.
For example when you save stone. Your character's response for saving him is.
Stone asks why did you save me?
Character answers well I was just around and I thought you needed to be saved so I did. (loosely remembered)
anyone play a game called resident evil??? parts of gothic's dialouge reminded me of that game nuff said.
though it wasn`t too bad my whole point is why does it happen since it's so easy to fix, I mean I would think the actors would question the dialogue actually but I guess they don`t care.
money shouldn`t be a problem, hmm I should offer my sevrices to the gothic 2 team. I would be happy to proofread and correct the dialouge for free.
hope the next game doesn`t have the same problem. |
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 9:50 am |
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Pinnen
Wearer of the Hat
Joined: 19 May 2002
Posts: 7092
Location: The Sandy Beach Resort |
@SirDiety, the expanation of how Gomezīs men tried to breach the walls is pretty good. But it doesnīt explain why the razors and shadowbeast are doing behind the wall. How did they come to be there? And what do they eat? They canīt live on stupid guards alone...
Seriously though, what really bugs me in games as far as voice-acting goes, is when "foreigners" talk english with an accent. Why on earth should german guards talk english to each other in the middle of a world war? Return to Castle Wolfenstein, anybody?
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CaptainWorshipperNonFlamer
CrossTopicBaner |
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:03 pm |
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Urnakh
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 49
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quote:
Originally posted by Pinnen
@SirDiety, the expanation of how Gomezīs men tried to breach the walls is pretty good. But it doesnīt explain why the razors and shadowbeast are doing behind the wall. How did they come to be there? And what do they eat? They canīt live on stupid guards alone...
Seriously though, what really bugs me in games as far as voice-acting goes, is when "foreigners" talk english with an accent. Why on earth should german guards talk english to each other in the middle of a world war? Return to Castle Wolfenstein, anybody?
Depends of the game. Wolfenstein mainly was a fun shooter that often remembered me to trash b-movies. If the german soldiers speak either clear german with underlines or clear english it somehow would reduce the trash/fun-factor of the game. Especially the the mp voice commands are hilarious with the mixed english-german. |
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 4:21 pm |
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Pinnen
Wearer of the Hat
Joined: 19 May 2002
Posts: 7092
Location: The Sandy Beach Resort |
Yeah okay, RtCW wasnīt maybe as bad in that area as Medal of Honor was good. That game would definatly be ruined with german-accent english. Or if the badguys in Jedi Knight 2 would speak english. Not the stromtroopers, but the Greedo ones and whatīs-their-names.
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CaptainWorshipperNonFlamer
CrossTopicBaner |
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Wed Oct 23, 2002 5:21 pm |
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SirDeity
Gothic's Loyal Hero
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 602
Location: Maine, USA |
The script error issues could go on and on. Reiterating what I've already said in either of the last two posts wouldn't solve anything.
To respond to your question: Razor's could for all we know eat the weakest of their pack for survival. For all we know the Razor's breed and give birth once per week. If you research exotic animals in real life you'll find that cannibalism is actually quite normal for some predators, especially when they can't find food otherwise. The shadow beast could eat the razor's, or perhaps either the razors or shadow beasts are summoned creatures of a magical nature rather than of natural living flesh and blood. In every case of abnormality you can apply a little bit of imaginationt to find a number of simple solutions or explanations.
Audio/speech errors: My first arguement still stands. Unless one of you were alive back in the age of kings then I don't think any of us can say how "proper" their english should be. I admit the unavoidable accent could be a bit puzzling if you try to fit it in to the storyline. We have to take into account that this place is similar to earth, but not earth at all. There are human beings. They hold many of the same traditions and beleifs, such as order. Fill in the blanks and one possiblity is a parallel universe in which earth is a magical place where humans did exist, but the history is completely original. Maybe an asteroid never hit this parallel earth and the dinosaurs were never erased from the planet? Hence, Razors, Shadow Beasts, etc....For all we know, those people's ancestors could have sailed to that continent from a continent 'like' Germany. That is one of hundreds of possible explanations for the accent which may or may not "sound" German as we understand it. Too far fetched to fathom? We have proof dinosaurs existed a long time ago. We also know that we DON'T know exactly how many different prehistoric species there were. Must I go on? For all we know orcs could have existed back then, but their bones, being microscopic in comparison to that of a dinosaur's bone, was biodegraded leaving no proof that they ever existed. If you believe in evolution, perhaps we used to be orcs but evolved into a more peaceful race currently dominating the eart as humans. You see, I could go on and on and on and on... Any parts of Gothic you throw at me and tell me to explain I can. All it takes is a bit of imagination. Why didn't Gothic include the parallel universe theory into the storyline? What would be the point of it? The game itself has nothing to do with any fictional past, its the present adventures that inspire you to play. If you need explanations to get enjoyment out of it, use your imagination and I am sure you will think of some sort of history that will fit the blanks.
~Your Loyal Gate Keeper,
SirDeity (Don't ask  ) |
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Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:54 am |
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ghola
City Guard
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 146
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RobKob: You should definitely use more smilies to avoid such misunderstandings.
Yes I should, but irony is more fun when doing it with a straight face.
As for the barrier... I can't quite remember the explanation offered. When I start a new game I'm always eager to move on and have to fight the urge to click through everything as fast as possible. Unfortunately this wannabe hero's impatience often gets the better of him... Come to think of it, maybe the dialogues I mentioned were the only ones I actually read.
Anyway, going by what you said... you're right, the whole barrier creation thing doesn't seem to make much sense either. Geez... were PB trying to insult us or what?
SirDiety: "Most script "errors" can be reasoned with if you apply a bit of imagination."
Sure, but some people are more willing to apply imagination than others. Our toleration for (and perception of) the kind of logical flaws we have been discussing is a very personal matter, but for each one of us goes that when we become aware of too many inconsistencies it will spoil the overall experience accordingly, because it will distract us from the story. I'm sure you will remember some movie or book that all together annoyed you more than it entertained you. Proficient script writers (and authors) take this into account and try to make everything as credible as possible. Their mileage will vary in accordance with their skills, efforts and control over their work.
And... a poster on a fan site forum should take this into account too, because he/she should realise that he may be spoiling other people's fun by pointing out inconsistencies. Sorry if I did, guys. I should have emailed my remarks to PB, but the point is that two or three logical flukes in a game really don't bother me all that much. That's the problem with great games like Gothic, it leaves us nagging about the obscure things. |
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Thu Oct 24, 2002 12:33 pm |
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Gerad
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 Jul 2002
Posts: 38
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Buddy you take this game too seriously
Jesus Chirst talk about rationalizing something.
You should spend your energy on something other then trying to explain gothic's obvious problems.
The GAME IS GREAT!!!!
heres the thing to do instead of coming up with some stupid story of why something happens just ignore it!!!!!
Gothic is one of the best rpgs I have ever played to be clear, be that as it may I don`t rationalize the flaws.
Heres a question I`ve been wondering about in the first place WHY DID THEY EVEN MAKE THE BARRIER??????
somebody please explain that I mean why make a barrier that no one can get out of, the prisoner's would be trapped but so would the guards??? doesn`t make much sense...
What this is testament to how good gothic is that I could ignore that logic problem.
no need for a barrier, heres a better idea build a fence!!!!!! or would magic spells be cheaper!!!!! |
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Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:31 am |
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