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Cold_Brains
Village Dweller
Joined: 09 Jan 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| The most over-rated RPG that isn't even an RPG..... |
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Yes, KOTOR.
It's an adventure - it's as much an RPG as the Space-Quest games. You could choose what order you go to which planet do do your tasks in SP4 (or 5, can't remember) as well. *This is not non-linearity!!*
You don't play KOTOR - it plays you. The hype this game has received as 'best rpg' is rather disturbing.
Deus Ex IW - an RPG? Or an action shooter with some branches and options?
BTW - here's a suggestion for RPGdot - the general games forum is sliced up into individual games - so if you want to talk about issues about the rpg genre in general, where do you go? Here? |
Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:36 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
CRPG General would be the place for that. There are forums in that grouping for specific games, but the General one at the top is for anything RPG related that doesn't belong somewhere else.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 2:40 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Sorry, but KoTOR is most definitely an RPG by any reasonable definition. I'd consider Diablo to be the most over-hyped non RPG, but then I hate shooters and that ilk.
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If God said it, then that settles it!
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:00 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Exactly how is KotOR NOT an RPG? Exactly how is Diablo NOT an RPG? Heck, WHY would Diablo EVER be considered a shooter?
The same way Arx Fatalis, DS and Gothic are not RPGs? The way you are free to choose skills, quests, have an inventory, advance etc?
Sheesh!
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 1:22 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Hexy ... I have never played KotOR, but Diablo I have played. I understand where Corwin is coming from (although *I* like Diablo) ... there is no CHARACTER advancement. Not once is the player faced with a moral dilema. At no point does the story change because you did or did not do something. The point of the game is build a huge body count ... and it is great for that, but it is very weak on the interactive novel side of things.
Example: During the last boss fight in HotU I went out of my way to keep my Drow companion (Nathyrra) alive, in fact I turned down a hectic paladin I'd met before to fight by my side because I'd grown attached to Nathyrra during our long treks through the underdark and hell. Taking the paladin was the right choice from a pure gaming view point, but did not fit the story I was participating in. I *did* feel a lot of remorse leaving the paladin behind ... but my drow friend meant more to me ... so the poor paladin remains locked in hell. Maybe the paladin's god will find a way to dig him/her out ... maybe not!
This is not the kind of choice Diablo faces you with!!
EDIT: Thanks to Goshuto, a potential spoiler has been removed!
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 3:53 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I'm sorry, but there's NO way that a moral dilemma is a requisite for an RPG.
No advancement? Uh... are we talking about the same Diablo here? You know.. the one with different classes, skills, levels etc? Being able to play good or evil is certainly good to have, any choice is good, but not a requisite.
Is having a plot that changes according to what you do a requirement for an RPG? I'm sorry then. There are no RPGs that make that requirement. MAYBE the Fallouts and ToEE, depending on how picky you want to be. There are a few more which have different ENDINGS, but no real plot changes. You still have certain things you have to do to advance in the plot in all games.
...
Or where you talking about sub-quest plots?
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:05 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
No, I am talking about a story that unfolds as your virtual alter ego procedes through it.
To me a good CRPG is one where I care about the characters I bump into, and there is a story that I can get swept away in. No, a CRPG does not need a moral dilema, but it helps. I want to get the *sense* that what I do matters, even if the story line is as linear as the Trans Siberian Railline.
Remember, I LIKE Diablo ... but I do not play it for the story. And no, my character does not mature in D or D2 ... just gets better at killing things. There is absolutely *zero* attempt to even immitate non linearity, at no point during the D or D2 experience do I sit back and say "Wow. I didn't expect that!", and never do I find myself taking a five minute break to figure out how in the heck I am supposed to proceded next. Nope.
However! After a frustrating day at work, it is nice to walk over the heaps of my enemies, and the quick character advancement yeilds a reward after a hard day of frustration.
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 5:46 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
I'm sorry, but there's NO way that a moral dilemma is a requisite for an RPG.
It is for a good one.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 7:24 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
RPG mechanics alone don't make an RPG, IMO. They make characters' devlopment (in terms of abilities) more interesting and personal, which is great, but the decision-making has to extend beyond the character sheet and into gameplay and/or story. If the significant choices end at distributing skill points and deciding what equipment to use, then you've only got half of what makes an RPG what it is (and for me personally, it's the less important half  )
Even FIFA's got character classes and stats for each individual player. R-Type has development in the form of power-ups, implemented in a way that makes choice viable and relevant (instead of just linear progression). Those things could be described as "RPG elements" (although I'm sure R-Type's creators never had that in mind :p ), but those games are clearly not RPGs. Then again, those RPG elements are slight, and can be safely ignored by players. Their impact on the game is noticeable, but not critical. What if they were critical - would that make a difference?
Look at the old X-COM games, in which you had named characters who would improve as they gained experience, and could be trained in specific disciplines, giving you control over their development, and who would benefit by using equipment and tactics appropriate to their skillset (incidentally, I think that covers every aspect of Diablo's RPG leanings  ). The games undeniably had strong RPG elements which were critical to progress - losing experienced troops or failing to train them properly would have serious effects on your performance. But they still weren't RPGs.
Many games from many genres use RPG-like mechanics, but still aren't considered RPGs. Why not? Surely the term "role-playing game" has to refer to the actual gameplay, not just the mechanics behind it. I don't know whether that means an RPG has to have story and characters that make your choices (of action, allegiance, moraltiy, etc.) seem significant, but that's the way it's done in every decent RPG I've played.
Personally, I didn't like Diablo, found it too repetetive after about 75% of the first game and never went back. I'm not going to try and say it's a bad game, it just wasn't for me. But I never regarded it as an RPG. Its core gameplay is basically a remake of Gauntlet, and the RPG mechanics are just a more complex version of choosing Warrior/Wizard/Elf/Valkyrie - the only decision outside the character sheet is "do I fight to my character's strengths or not?" and for me that does not constitute a role-playing experience.
That's why I think Diablo fits the description in this topic title more closely than any other game I've played. |
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Fri Jan 23, 2004 9:51 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
KotOR is a CRPG that veers pretty close to the Adventure line so I can understand where Cold_Brains is coming from (to a degree).
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 2:15 am |
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mkreku
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 112
Location: Uppsala, Sweden |
Diablo only allows the player to follow one predestined path, no matter which class he/she chooses to play. The classes only work as different ways of killing monsters. Not one time in the game do you have TWO paths to follow. Not one time in the game can you think "hmm, I am tired of this braindead dungeon killing, let's go do something else" since there's absolutely nothing else to do (unless you enjoy seeing the same dialogue from the five townspeople over and over again). There's only one goal: kill more monsters and go deeper into the dungeon. The "dialogues" never give you any options to answer, thus making them monologues. The "quests" are forced upon you, if you just click on the right townspeople at the right time, and the quests will be "completed" no matter if you understand what you're doing or not since there's just one way to walk and you have to pass the quests to be able to advance in the game. And there are NO SKILLS in Diablo. Only 4 different attributes that barely affects the gameplay, mostly by reducing the number of equipment availible to you. Sure, there are lots of different swords to choose from, but who cares when all you have to do is pick the one with the highest stats and continue killing (clicking on) monsters.
For someone to even try to compare a game of this sort to Gothic/Gothic 2 just shows how little that person understands about game design.
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Swedes visit NordicGamers for the latest game reviews in swedish! |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 3:04 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
God, Hexy, I am sick of you saying that Gothic and Gothic 2 are not RPGs. But to say that Diablo is more of an RPG than Gothic/Gothic 2 is like saying that pork tastes more like steak than steak does. Diablo is an action game with RPG elements, and as I've said before, Gothic and Gothic 2 are RPGs with action elements. I do think that KoTOR is an RPG, however, so I will not deny that.
EDIT: Oh, and why do you say that Diablo is an RPG and Dungeon Siege is not? I wonder why you came to that conclusion.
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OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
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Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 5:32 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Hang on a second... I don't think Hexy was saying that he thinks Gothic isn't an RPG. I think he was saying that calling Diablo a non-RPG is like calling Gothic, Arx, etc. non-RPGs.
I wouldn't agree with that though... the mix of RPG elements is totally different in those three games, and is significantly weaker and less central to gameplay in Diablo than in the other two. Hexy also asked how anyone could ever consider Diablo a shooter, which is a question I can answer - I played it as an archer and did nothing but shoot, shoot, shoot til I thought I might get repetetive strain injury. Shooting was almost the entirity of the game, with light RPG overtones, so I regarded it very much as a shooter. |
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Sat Jan 24, 2004 6:57 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Thank you Piln, I feel vindicated. Diablo is a shooter!! 
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sun Jan 25, 2004 1:54 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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So, hack'n'slash = shooter? I guess that's true from one point of view. Although you do definitely do more than JUST shoot in Diablo.
A shooter feels more like games like Tyrian and such, which is SLIGHTLY different from Diablo.
Gothic was a bad example, since it's way more of an RPG than Diablo, although you mostly fight in that game too.
However, DS and Arx were pretty spot on. Even though Arx has a more advanced skill-system, you have no dialogue options and an overload of fighting.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jan 25, 2004 7:42 am |
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