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shai_aus
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Australia |
| Riding Wizardry 8's lifts... OF DOOM |
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Hello everyone.
I was thinking of trying out the (Iron Man?) game where you can't save without exiting. Sorta like ADOM, in that sense.
Anyway, I'm not really worried about the encounters so much as the annoying bugs that seem to crop up. Actually, they're more than annoying, and often fatal.
When I use lifts, from the one in the Monastary right through to the one at the airport in Arnika, strange things often happen that cause me to either be crushed to death, or take significant falling damage. I press the button to activate it, and my party might fall through the floor (if it's going up) or get horribly crushed.
The worst offender so far has been the shortcut lift from the Rattkin Tree back down to Trynton. I tried several times, and my best result had two of my weaker party members dead from falling damage. Luckily, that one is optional.
I'm running Wiz8 on a slow laptop (it's the best I have right now), and was wondering if this problem had anything to do with my decreased framerate. Or is this a problem for everyone? Any solutions?
Cheers |
Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:13 pm |
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shai_aus
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Australia |
Sorry, it just occured to me that some of you might not know what a lift is. Think 'elevator'. We call them lifts in Australia.
Oh, and I have the latest version of Wiz8, so downloading a patch wont help/ |
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:16 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Well, apart from inproper use of the lifts (jumping out while they move), I have never experienced that a glitch in the graphichs or so made my party fall through the floor, like seen in many other elder games. However standing under a lift while it's comming down will crush your party, as it should do.
I don't know if your laptop, sometimes have so poor performance, that it doesn't update your graphics precise enough to avoid these glitches, but I surely can't confirm your problems on a PII-350 MHZ with a Geforce 2 64MB graphic card and 256 RAM.
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Tue Sep 03, 2002 2:50 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
I had this problem too. To me, it seems that your party can fall off the edge of the elevators if you're standing to close. Kind of a bug, but I'd say it's probably a conscious programming decision based upon the size of the smallest elevator (i.e. you can't set the fall off distance so close that the smallest elevator can't ever work). My solution is just to stand as far away from the entrance edge as possible. I never fell off once I started doing this.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Wed Sep 04, 2002 2:43 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
Playing without an accelerator, i had some interesting placement problems. If you turn while on a lift (or move at all) you can get behind or ahead of its motion and be computed as having tried to occupy the same space (crush) or no space at all (fall).
This can also cause things like Bobo bieng written in outside of his cage as you come up the ramp, and some enemies getting stuck in their doorways. |
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Wed Sep 04, 2002 3:28 am |
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Rhea
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 40
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I agree that it's probably not so much a bug as a placement problem.
Even though I know this, I just fell off the spaceport lift. Then I didn't get out of the way and when I pushed the button to bring it back down, I got crushed. 
I notice the best way to avoid this is to stand smack in the middle away from any edges until the silly thing stops moving. As long as I do that it seems ok.
I've also noticed that sometimes when I pan around to look while on the lift (i.e. use right mouse, not both buttons) I will occasionally fall off, even though theoretically I'm not moving.
I guess that just as in real life, it's best to stand well away from the edges and not horse around till the lift stops.  |
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Wed Sep 04, 2002 9:12 pm |
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shai_aus
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Australia |
Sorry about the lapse in reply. I should have said earlier that I am running in software mode. It actually looks pretty good, but there are things that bug me. There seem to be some sort of invisible walls that I run into (mostly in Trynton), and I have to run back and forward a couple of times before I can actually proceed. That's annoying, but the problem with the lifts is much worse.
As to whether it's a placement problem rather than a bug, I'll relate you my recent (after I started this thread) experiences of trying to take the shortcut lift in the Rattkin Tree. I told you before that this was by far the worst one, mostly because it doesn't change areas when you go up or down (like the lift from Trynton to the Upper Branches does). It's a looong drop down to the platform where the lift stops.
Ok then. According to the advice posted in reply to my query, I stood smack bang in the middle of the platform for my first try, and held my breath as I pressed the button to go down. The first second was fine, but then I saw the platform rise above my party's heads, and, screaming we fell all the way to the bottom ledge where the lift ends up. Everyone took about 70-120 damage, and my Bishop and Gadgeteer died. 
Reload. This time, I decided to stand close to the back end of the lift, thinking that the barrier would probably stop me if my party decided to fall. Pressed the button. Same thing happened, but this time the screen went white, saying that my party had been crushed. 
Reload. Ok, I'll stand at the front now. Press button. The results were the same as trial #1, but this time my Monk died as well. 
Reload. Said "screw this", and began trudging back to Trynton - the long way. Thank god it's optional. |
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Fri Sep 06, 2002 11:36 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
Sounds like a system insufficiency; your hardware isn't keeping up with the frame rate, so the lift is disappearing for too long before it reappears in the next frame; since party movement is calculated first, you keep going down. Maybe another stick of memory or a G-accelerator would help... |
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Fri Sep 06, 2002 8:11 pm |
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shai_aus
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Australia |
Yes, that's what I thought it was.I don't know about upgrading, though. I'd rather just get a new desktop 
Besides, the problem isn't THAT bad. Like I said, most lifts in the game are optional, so I can just skip them and get oodles of experience going the long way. I'll stick it out until the end. I was just wondering if there was some way to fix it without upgrading.
Thanks for the advice. |
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Sat Sep 07, 2002 1:24 pm |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
If you can control your Cache, maybe raising the Stack size and File cap should help. Because the game doesn't clean up after itself, rebooting periodically may help, too, esp if you've loaded a few times or crossed a couple of Zones. |
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Sat Sep 07, 2002 10:19 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by otter
Sounds like a system insufficiency; your hardware isn't keeping up with the frame rate, so the lift is disappearing for too long before it reappears in the next frame; since party movement is calculated first, you keep going down. Maybe another stick of memory or a G-accelerator would help...
Interesting thought, but I don't think this is it. I'm not an expert on Windows video drivers and video cards, but from a programming point of view it doesn't make sense to me. Whether or not the video is handled by the main bus or the video card it should work like this from a software point of view:
1) Player activates lift
2) Recalculate lift and party positions, including movement, gravity, holes in the floor, etc. This means if you walk off the edge of the lift, your movement and the lifts movement become independent of each other.
3) Send appropriate commands to update screen. If the video is main bus dependent, then the program will have the same number of frames at a slower rate (which I don't think is possible with today's video cards, but I could be wrong). If the video card is truly independent from the main CPU (which it should be), while it is updating the screen it will continue on to step 4 (and you may see jerky motion while frames are dropped if you lack sufficient speed).
4) Calculate effect of lift on party position. (ex: party goes up or down, party has moved forward off the edge and goes into free fall, lift hits party in the head, etc.)
Repeat steps 2-4 until lift stops or until step 4 indicates the party has died.
Whether or not the video in step 3 can keep up (more of an issue of the main bus is involved, as opposed to everything being video card processor driven), step 4 is not on-screen collision detection. It's about comparing relative position of other objects in relationship to the party object. Since the party and lift coordinates are independently calculated prior to issuing the graphical commands, whether or not the graphical commands complete execution in a timely manner is irrelevant to the comparison in step 4. Therefore frame rate, CPU speed, and memory should not play a role in this problem.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:18 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
Well, i added memory, and a lot of that went away. I think the thing calculates your position, the position(s) of the setting (and furnishings, etc), and of mobs independently, and slower calculation as evidenced by jumping graphics may be responsible for things getting out of sync, causing the juxtiposition or separation. (ie your party stops moving so a background can be drawn in, but the lift keeps moving as its movement has priority (or is easier) to be calculated first. Then you maybe get caught by the descending ceiling, which crushes you.
I tested standing still but looking around while the bank lift was going down, and if i slowed the game down by reloading a few times, i could see that the lift was being drawn in with my eye level up at the ceiling just before the Death screen came on.
I also took a couple runs up to the Zoo in Trynton, where, if i slow the game down enough by reloading, i can run up that curve and watch the scenery jump closer, and the cage ends up farther left before Bobo gets drawn in, but he's already on the radar, so he ends up on the walkway. |
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Wed Sep 11, 2002 4:48 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
Otter, you may be completely right. But it just doesn't make sense from my point of view. Of course, I didn't program Wiz8 so that: 1) maybe the programmers did jumble up the proper algorithm which I simplified above, which could correspond to your experiences; or 2) maybe they screwed up step 4, by using on screen collision detection instead of mathematical comparison of object points; or 3) they used "threads", such as those implemented by C++, where the 3 actions (movement, video update, comparison) are run simultaneously on a timing basis instead of linearly.
Assuming you're right Otter, then my guess would be that it's problem #3, where things are occurring out of order from what the programmers expected. On the Wizardry 8 website, they posted a link to a nice article on monster paths and collision avoidance, which they incorporated into the game for more realism. Since they described mathematical comparisons between objects to avoid collisions, it would make sense for them to use the same comparisons for lifts. Since the problem is inconsistent, it doesn't seem to be that the algorithm itself is botched. And if the algorithm is sound, then the only possible cause it the algorithm is being executed out of order because of speed problems, and then extra speed (CPU, memory, better video card, etc.) to get to the end of the algorithm might be critical for the comparison to be properly made if it's being done on a thread basis (such as supported by C++) instead of linearly. Given the overall quality of the game, I wouldn't have expected this, but if you're right Otter, then this is my best guess as to the cause.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Wed Sep 11, 2002 5:10 am |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
Yah, #3 looks good; i was just in the Monastery again, trying out randomly-mixed Race/Class, and tested the Bridge, it passed me going up, i could clearly see it move without me going along. (this was stepping backwards from a position as far onto the bridge as i could get and still reach the switch. The graphics were stuttering a lot; i had reloaded about 20 times, and then moved around some, which slows down the game severely, esp as i have no graphics accelerator) I didn't step off the bridge, i fell into the Fishpond right about level with where my one step back took me. This wasn't usually deadly (3 kills in 25 tries with a party of5), probably because my separation happened while the thing was still pretty low. I never had a collision (in 25 samples) with the bridge, so i guess it's just killing me with the lift ceiling not by juxtiposition, but collision. And since lifts can crush... |
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 7:02 am |
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shai_aus
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2002
Posts: 97
Location: Australia |
Well, you guys have pretty much lost me on all of this technical stuff 
I tried restarting the game to counter the memory-eating bug thingy, and that worked out ok. Framerates were improved, but I wasn't game enough to try the lift again. If I can muster up the money, I'll increase my memory to 158MB with another stick. Otherwise, I'll just avoid lifts until I finally get a new computer. |
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Thu Sep 12, 2002 12:43 pm |
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