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Clandestine
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Johnson City, TN |
Dhruin, you're welcome.
Rendelius, thank you for not policing this forum. I had actually expected you to jump in, so I certainly appreciate your not doing it. In answer to the question, "How could loving another person be wrong...?", I would reply, my basis for saying homosexuality is wrong is based on the Word of God, which in contained in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. As for two same-sex people having a non-sexual loving relationship, I think that is perfectly fine. There are many men whom I know that I love dearly and brotherly, and yet I have no physical relationship with them. Homosexuality is based in unnatural physical sex and the non-sexual situation you are describing might be 1% of all people who consider themselves homosexual.
As for your definition of tolerance, I think you and I would agree. If a homosexual wants to be a homosexual, that's his perogative. I'm not going to gun him down in secret for it. However, similar to you, I will often (not always - I wish I could be that consistent) stand up and tell homosexuals and those who endorse homosexuality why I don't agree. And again, with you, as long as a homosexual wants to be queer without oppressing me, then I have no problem with that. Even so, that does not mean that I will condone his immoral behavior. And for the record, for those who think I'm bashing the poor queer, I feel the same way about adulterers, thieves, liars, rapists, and, heck, even myself, since I am guilty of all the above in some form or another.
Gorath, even from a literary and historical viewpoint, you are speaking things of the Scriptures that you know nothing about and making yourself look silly in light of those who know better. The Scriptures have had and continue to have a greater impact on the world at large than any other book or books combined. Far from outdated and irrelevant, the Scriptures continue to gain popularity even more today than ever.
I don't see how this discussion was a waste of time, but I will admit that I am getting quite tired of it. The more I talk the more some people agree with me and the more others disagree. Those who disagree have a right to be wrong, and those who agree may defend truth themselves in other ways. I just chose this battle because the opportunity was there. With that said, I have made my point, you have made yours, and the quicker you guys stop responding, the quicker I will stop feeling compelled to respond. You can go back do doing whatever you do on this site, and I can continue to read news of Everquest II and World of Warcraft.
Thanks again Rendelius for allowing free speech to govern this forum.
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"The Scots Character is Forged in Granite. That is no Timid Reed. Shaken by the Wind. " |
Sun Aug 22, 2004 10:14 pm |
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Lorgosin
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 69
Location: Sweden |
quote:
Originally posted by Clandestine
Gorath, even from a literary and historical viewpoint, you are speaking things of the Scriptures that you know nothing about and making yourself look silly in light of those who know better. The Scriptures have had and continue to have a greater impact on the world at large than any other book or books combined. Far from outdated and irrelevant, the Scriptures continue to gain popularity even more today than ever.
I don't think anyone questions its impact, just weather all the bible's values are relevant or right today. As for it getting more popular: Maybe in the American south, but I suggest you come over to Europe and see how it's faring here. Most Swedes are atheists for example. I agree with you that the bible is probably the single most influential book in history. I do not however agree that the influence was good or that it's more influential than all other books combined (take the koran, the communist manifesto and origin of species and you'd be pretty close). I don't believe in letting one book dictate what I should do. I'm critical of all sources of information and use only what I believe has a good foundation in reality. Then of course, I'm a programmer, so I tend to be logical about things. Since you cannot KNOW that god exists (I just believe strongly that he/she doesn't) I suggest you stop insinuating that you know better that anyone else. This was my last post on this thread so you don't have to worry about me anymore. |
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Mon Aug 23, 2004 3:33 am |
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Clandestine
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Johnson City, TN |
Interesting, since I am a programmer by profession also...
I think it would be quite easy to prove that the Bible has had a much larger impact on the world than the Koran, Communist Manifesto, or any other piece of literature.
It is correct that you cannot KNOW that God DOES NOT exist, because that absolutely cannot be proven. I can, however, unarguably prove that God does exist, even without using the Scriptures, but using plain old non-presuppositional logic. That may a point to prove another day. I do not suggest that I know better than anyone else, for there are many who can run circles around me and do, but it will not be you, and not today.
One last thought - the devil has won this battle in Christendom. He has convinced people in Christendom that there is not a war going on, and that there is no moral right and wrong, and that there is no standard of truth to be found. Therefore, there is no battle to be fought, no right on which to stand, and no absolute truth. Hence, the insistence on "tolerance" and relativism which even comes from Christianity. You stand across the bridge from Right, holding and waving your AK-47s and have convinced Christendom that you are their friends. Christendom begins to build a bridge to you and you wave them on all the more, and when the bridge is completed, you run across and attack. This is the battle the devil has won and it is working marvellously today across the world.
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"The Scots Character is Forged in Granite. That is no Timid Reed. Shaken by the Wind. " |
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Mon Aug 23, 2004 6:21 am |
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Pinky's Brain
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 40
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Letting someone with a stick and carrot dictate your morality shows nothing but cowardice, no matter how big the stick and how big the carrot. |
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Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:00 pm |
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Clandestine
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Johnson City, TN |
I couldn't agree more, Pinky's Brain - a stick and carrot just won't do. That only shows people who are cowards and don't think for themselves, but who are lead on by every wind of doctrine that blows. Hmm, sort of like the tolerance advocates. There must be a greater standard by which we pattern our morality and lives, such as the Bible, which contains the oldest extant manuscripts known to humankind, and which has been used throughout history by millions of people as a safe and secure instructor and guardian of moral teachings and absolute truth, especially in regard to the Ten Commandments, which are accepted by almost all nations everywhere as good and right, and is the foundation of most governments and laws in the world.
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"The Scots Character is Forged in Granite. That is no Timid Reed. Shaken by the Wind. " |
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Mon Aug 23, 2004 7:10 pm |
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Pinky's Brain
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 28 Nov 2002
Posts: 40
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Accepting something merely on precedent is not thinking for yourself. |
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Mon Aug 23, 2004 11:32 pm |
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Clandestine
Village Dweller
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 15
Location: Johnson City, TN |
Again, I couldn't agree more, Pinky's Brain. You have great insight. It is clear from the character of the Bible that it is not the work of man, for man could not have written it if he would, and would not have written it if he could. Further, creation itself testifies to the validity of the Bible.
Now one point on which you are not thinking straight is in believing that you can completely objectively think for yourself. It is quite impossible to do this because you cannot think "for yourself" inside a vacuum, i.e., you cannot develop a world view apart from the world around you. Since the world around you influences your thinking, you naturally accept the precedents that have been set before you in life to develop and canonize your world view. It is quite likely that you have been heavily influenced by gnostics or agnostics in your life, which is where the "thinking for yourself" idea comes from. This is cute and sounds good, but just doesn't hold water. Without the knowledge of others before you, you would know nothing. You know what you know because someone somewhere taught you, either directly or through your own reading of others. This being the case, it is a very good idea to surround yourself with precedent, since you stand with multitudes of wise individuals who have gone before you and have thought through the big questions of life and have arrived at answers that set a precedent. This is true, unless you consider yourself wiser than anyone who has gone before you, to the point that you reject anything anyone else has said. If this is true then you are a fool of fools. If this is not true, then it is true that your world view is based upon the precedent of others and not yourself, which brings us once again to finding precedent worthy of embracing, rather than whimsical and passing ideaologies that can be easily disproven. As for the Bible, you could easier disprove your own existence than you could disprove the reliability of the Scriptures as an historical and credible document. It is this type of precedent that you should embrace and hinge your world view upon, rather than the folly of philosophy and reason, upon which the gnostics drive themselves mad.
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"The Scots Character is Forged in Granite. That is no Timid Reed. Shaken by the Wind. " |
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Tue Aug 24, 2004 7:04 am |
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Dwango
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 68
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I know this subject has already gone far afield, but I feel I have to say something. Please do not believe that all U.S. citizens think as Clandestine does. Most of us have not locked ourselves away in our own back-water, thinking that the world-view of our own village is good enough for the world. Many of us have experienced other cultures and world-views different than our own and discovered that tolerance is most important skill to learn in such a vibrant world of many ethnicities and religions.
It seems sometime the voice of the extremists are all we have lately. But really, the majority of us are pretty even-tempered and rational folks, allowing others to live and let live. And, believe me, this diverse a nation would not have survived so long in most of us believed there was a cultural war needed to be waged.
As for the subject, if a developer wants to have a gay relationship in an RPG, that is fine by me. I doubt I'd be interested in such a plot device, but I've no problem with those who are having thier cup of tea.
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Ha, Ha, Ha.... Oh, you were SERIOUS?
-Dwango |
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Tue Aug 24, 2004 9:18 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
Well as an American I am not "embarrassed" by Clandestine's behavior at all. I don't feel he is an "extremist" in any way. He is just stating what he beleives and the reasons behind it in a tactful, respectful manner.
My feeling on romances in games , Gay or not, is that they are LAME. There are many ways to imply relationships or leave things up to the players imagination. No need to get into mushy details or throwwomen at the PC in unrealistic manners. Better to spend that time polishing other areas of the game. I agree with an earlier poster - therre are many other ways to make a game a fun and interesting . No need to force such a controversial subject matter into it.
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Tue Aug 24, 2004 3:15 pm |
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