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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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Yeah, I'd rather it wasn't censored too. I won't go so far as to not buy it though, because it will be the only version available and I'm sure it won't ruin the game. But like Jamison, I like knowing I'm getting the real thing. It's not about "wow, look at the boobies" because if you want porn, I'm sure you can find much better sources.
It's sort of like how I don't like watching movies on network TV because you know they're edited, but you don't even know what's been cut out. Sometimes it can even be a whole scene. Now if you've already seen the movie, it's not that big of a deal, but it's no way to see it for the first time.
If anyone says they don't care at all if it's censored, let me ask you this. Say there were 2 versions on the shelves, censored and regular. Which would you buy? Would you just grab one and not care? Would you not even ask what the difference was? I doubt it.
I know it's not going to work that way with Gothic, because there will only be one version in the US, and it will be good either way, but I don't blame people for asking what's cut out. |
Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:03 pm |
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Stiletto
God Emperor
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 312
Location: Orlando, Florida |
Raldor: good point, but since there is only going to be one version which one do you think PB would rather put out? If you were there with your 12 year old son who likes RPG's and there are the same two versions sitting on the shelves. One says "Appropriate for children age 12" and the other says "Appropriate for age 17", which are you going to buy your child? Don't you think this means gained revenue for PB? While the censored version is likely to gain customers it is not likely to lose customers. Well maybe one <: On the other hand, the uncensored version might lose customers. |
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Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:47 pm |
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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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Yeah, I'm sure you're right about that, and I don't really blame them for changing the game. I don't know marketing, but I'd guess it's the smart bussiness move to make. I just think it's too bad they need to do it, or can't at least put out both versions (but that would probably be a mess).
All in all, I'm not too worried about it, because if there's only one US version, I can just ignore the German version, and I'm sure it will be good anyway. If I had never heard it was edited, I'd probably never even know the difference. I just don't like things edited in general. |
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Sun Oct 21, 2001 8:41 pm |
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Guest
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Actually, the German goverment forbids violence (read blood) against humans in games- that's why the gore is taken out of the German version. Full nudity is not allowed in US games, and that's why there's a bikini on the bathtub chick. Piranha has to comply with these standards by meeting requests of publishers in the respective countries. |
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Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:12 pm |
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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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Are you sure full nudity is really forbidden by US law? I know nothing about Germany, but I thought in the US you could put in just about any content you want. The only problem is, it will be rated accordingly and that can doom your sales. I think the movie business works something like this anyway, but is the game industry different? |
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Fri Oct 26, 2001 3:21 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
Hi Raldor,
it's true. No nudity in U.S. PC games or free TV allowed.
If you turn on German TV after 11 p.m. you're very likely to see more tits than you'll ever see for real in your whole life  .
They even show bare tits in the afternoon on some free TV channels. This is not a big deal over here.
But when it comes to gore in games or movies (including TV movies) the situation is reversed. Not a big deal in the U.S. but big deal in Germany. German TV versions of U.S. action movies (like "Pulp Fiction") are not uncut (e.g. you won't see the full scene where John Travolta accidentally shoots the guy in the car in "Pulp Fiction").
Computer games is once again a little different. There's an authority in Germany called "BPjS". It will never tell a game developer or publisher to censor or cut their game.
In fact, they don't even act on their own behalf. Someone has to first let them know of a title that includes overrated violence. They will then test the game and put it on the so called "index". Games on "index" may not be advertised or sold through online or retail stores. They're not forbidden though. People over the age of 18 are allowed to legally own the game. Therefore it's quite easy to get a game that's been put on index.
Wonder when they decide to put a game on that list ? The law says: a game has to be put on index when killing is absolutely necessary for finishing the game AND when killing is an essential part of the game (like the game itself wouldn't make much sense if there weren't killing involved). The "to-be-killed" creatures in the game need to be "human-like".
The whole thing is quite confusing. E.g. Unreal or Unreal Tournament were never put on index whereas the English versions of Half-Life and the whole Quake series were thrown on the list. There's probably never been an inquiry to put those (UT & co.) games on index or elsewise they -very likely- would have been banned as well.
Unfortunately most developers and publishers are not taking chances. They make blood in the German versions *green* or implement "Cyborgs" (instead of "real soldiers") in the "Command & Conquer" series to prevent they're being put on index.
Can't really blame them though. Germany still is the 2nd largest market for computer video games in the world. As a publisher you wouldn't want to see your game put off the shelves due to some German laws.
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Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:01 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Moriendor, indexed games can be sold in retail stores. They have to be taken off the shelve and any form of advertising is strictly prohibited.
But,for example, if you go to Media Markt and _ask_ for Max Payne they are legally allowed to sell it to you after they checked your ID. |
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Sat Oct 27, 2001 12:20 am |
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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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Hi Moriendor, nice informative post.
I think I'm clear on the part about Germany now, but that's not so much what I was confused about. I had always heard graphic violence wasn't allowed in games there, but I never knew the real facts on it.
What I'm really confused on, is when you say "No nudity in U.S. PC games or free TV allowed." Now the free TV part, I understand. It's pretty much common knoweledge here, even though someone tries to bend the rules a tad every once in a while. But I had no idea about the PC games. When you say it isn't allowed, do you mean the publishers just never allow it, or do you mean there's actually a law or regulation against it, like with the free TV? |
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Sat Oct 27, 2001 4:00 am |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
@ Gorath: I know  .That's how I got my copy of Quake 3 at Pro Markt. Asked some guy and he retrieved it from a box that was hidden under the shelves.
@ Raldor: Got me . Well, there is a United States Code regarding nudity on TV (check this link - United States Code, 18 U.S.C. §1464). Admittedly I have no idea whether or not there is a similar code for video/computer games but why shouldn't there be  . Can't really answer your question. Sorry.
However, I guess the situation is similar to Germany. To prevent their games from being put on index (or prohibited), developers and publishers choose to not get in conflict with the authorities. In Germany they downgrade the violence by coloring blood green even though noone forces them to do so and even though chances are high you wouldn't be put on index even if the blood was red. And in the U.S. they just don't put nudity into games.
BTW, I now remember why I quit my law studies .
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Sat Oct 27, 2001 2:26 pm |
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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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quote:
Admittedly I have no idea whether or not there is a similar code for video/computer games but why shouldn't there be .
I'm no expert on the law, but here's why I always thought it would be different:
I never questioned the regulations on the free TV, because that's being beamed out to everyone, and any kid can just turn on the TV and see what's on there. Now, what gets edited and what doesn't sometimes puzzles me, but that's another story. It's not just the sex that gets cut either. You'll see violence in games and movies that would never make it to free TV here. I haven't seen Pulp Fiction on TV, but I bet that scene you mentioned wouldn't go unedited on US TV either.
I always thought games followed more the same rules as movies rather than TV. Of course, movies on free TV are edited too, but I'm talking about at the theater or when you buy it on DVD or VHS. Movies here can contain full nudity or even sex scenes, but it will be rated as such, and being rated higher than "R" pretty much means lower sales in most cases. It seems like there's even a trend to stay below "R" lately for highest possible sales, so we end up with tons of PG-13 garbage. Some theaters probably refuse to show more adult oriented (NC-17) films, like some stores (Wal-Mart) refuse to sell certain games, hurting sales even more.
A game, like a movie, can't really make it's way into your home without you specifically buying or renting it. They also have ratings on them, so parents can look at what they're actually buying for their kid. Whether or not the ratings system is good, or detailed enough is another matter
Anyway, I just always figured that we hardly ever see nudity in games for business reasons, not because it's not allowed by law. But like I said before, I don't know the law, so this could all be BS. Either way the end result is the same, so it doesn't really change anything with Gothic. I just got curious.
Somewhat unrelated question:
Is showing breasts considered nudity over there? I know it's allowed, but some swear words are allowed on TV here and are still considered swear words. Maybe it's a silly question and you don't get so hung up on it there or use the word differently? I've always thought the US position on this was sort of strange even though I've lived here all my life. |
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Sat Oct 27, 2001 4:32 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Somewhat unrelated question:
Is showing breasts considered nudity over there? I know it's allowed, but some swear words are allowed on TV here and are still considered swear words. Maybe it's a silly question and you don't get so hung up on it there or use the word differently? I've always thought the US position on this was sort of strange even though I've lived here all my life.
After so much switching between USA and Germany in this thread I´m not sure, where "over there" is , so I´ll say something to the German situation.
Naked bodies and breasts, shower scenes, etc. are formally considered nudity, but in reality they are widely accepted. Many mags and tv stations use virtually every possible reason to show more or less nudity. This is absolutely no problem here, these pics, scenes or commercials are uncensored. Movies like Basic Instinct can be shown uncut after 22.00, but usually the brutal action scenes are cut and the movie shown at 20.15. Prime criterion for movies is the FSK rating.
All swear words are allowed and not beeped out. Most of them are considered swear words. It´s pretty funny to see all those new US rockbands, which come to Germany for the first time, in interviews. How they try not to use swear words ...
One more thing I want to add to Moriendor´s post(s). All those censorship/rating/indexing rules in Germany are flexible (read: unpredictable). Games and movies can be banned for gloryfication of violence, but the BPjS can also decide that the artistic value is more important than the violence and don´t ban the game.
[ This Message was edited by: Gorath on 2001-10-27 16:20 ] |
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Sat Oct 27, 2001 9:11 pm |
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Raldor
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 27 Sep 2001
Posts: 107
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Heh, yes, I meant Germany by "over there". I must say it sounds like Germany's attitude makes more sense than the attitude here (US), but what do I know.
[ This Message was edited by: Raldor on 2001-10-28 09:21 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Raldor on 2001-10-28 09:22 ] |
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Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:20 am |
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Ragnar
High Emperor
Joined: 30 Oct 2001
Posts: 486
Location: NJ USA |
Being an American, censorship gets to me…no matter what the form. Except for the military telling the news crew what were doing in Afghanistan. All there doing is telegraphing our next move to the terrorists. But getting back to the game, I believe this whole thread started with a girl in a bath tub. I’ve been playing the Demo for over a week now and have not seen a bath tub, let alone a girl. What am I missing?
_________________
"That one hurt..."
Sylvio |
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Wed Oct 31, 2001 4:52 pm |
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Stiletto
God Emperor
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 312
Location: Orlando, Florida |
You have to cheat to see the girl. Go to the castle where the guards normally tell you that you are not allowed in. Stand in front of them, draw your sword and run past them. Do the same thing to get into the Ore Barons house. Its right past the gate. Go upstairs and I think in the middle bedroom is the girl in question.
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Stiletto
God Emperor |
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Wed Oct 31, 2001 6:00 pm |
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Ragnar
High Emperor
Joined: 30 Oct 2001
Posts: 486
Location: NJ USA |
Well that explains it…I’m not one for cheating. But since it seems that that is the only way to get in, I’ll give it a try.
Thanks...
_________________
"That one hurt..."
Sylvio |
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Wed Oct 31, 2001 6:15 pm |
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