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JustAidan
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 11
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| Almost zero female characters |
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This just struck me as odd as I thought about it and then thought back to Baldurs gate 1/2 Neverwinter,Arcanum etc. Its that Gothic 2 has almost zero female characters as anything close to an important npc. (Don't want to get into a whole sexist discussion one way or the other because frankly it isn't an issue to me).
Its just that in Baldurs gate and such there where both genders readily appearent but the only pivotal npc thats female is the Thief Leader Cassia I think.( Hope that doesn't count as a spoiler)
Just thought this was a bit strange and was wondering was this somthing to do with the country it was produced in since I rarely....*thinks* I have never played a game made in Germany before.
On a side note one thing I would like to see in Gothic 3 would be more interaction with the NPCs like Gorn and such like Baldurs Gate 2.
It makes it so much more rpgish.
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Hungry feed me here
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:15 am |
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ballistic
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 44
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the Gothic's gameworld is very different from the D&D inspired gameworld such as in Baldur's Gate. so, I dont' think the comparison is warranted. Gothic's gameworld is a harsh, realistic and edgy environment, whereas D&D is a high fantasy gameworld. I don't think it has anything to do with where the game was made, just a different design approach. |
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 12:26 am |
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Irf
High Emperor
Joined: 18 Jul 2002
Posts: 1032
Location: England |
I think the gothic world is quiet realistic, few women would have had important roles in those days, especially when it came to "official" roles like ministers, mayors, etc.
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 1:47 am |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
Gothic/G2 and games like it are NOT historical at all, so saying "its realistic because in middle ages blahblah" is irrelevant.
- In middle ages, priests weren't analogous to mages and did not run around throwing fireballs with their fists
- In middle ages there were no orcs, trolls, dragons, blahblah
Its fantasy and fantasy is whatever the designers want it to be.
In this case, they want to have a world with less women. They're taking their cue from either german folklore or Tolkien (which is based on Celtic/other Euro folklore). Tolkien doesn't have any strong women characters either (movie was CORRUPTED).
BUT many other modern fantasy (whether "high" or dark, realistic, gritty, etc. ) has strong women characters... has nothing to do with D&D, they were around before D&D. They have strong women because their authors choose so.
Anyways as someone said before its a design choice and nothing that should be harshly criticized... IMO! But there's also no need to defend it by pointing to reality. A *true* medieval RPG would be much more bloody/dark/depressing than G2. It'd basically be human vs. human and would be FULL of class struggle, racism, religious warfare, sex abuse, child abuse, etc. etc. Fantasy is so much better. |
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 4:25 am |
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akko
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jul 2003
Posts: 4
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women could be best priest, or magician, or alchemist... A bit more cerebral than the men... Or thief too...
It's true that most of women in Gothic 2 stand behind the table...
A very germanic point of view, i think... |
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 9:38 am |
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XeroX
The MasterCopy
Joined: 13 Dec 2001
Posts: 7125
Location: The Netherlands |
What did you aspect following Gothic 1. The mercenaries aren't going to follow a female as there leader, after being in prison for a long time.
At least there are a few female merchants and they will fight when attacked or something happens around them.
btw: LOR has one important female, the lady of the forest fo Lorien. She even wares one of the rings.
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 10:48 am |
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JustAidan
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 11
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Lots of good points here on that comment....  Saves me putting them down.
On a side note Gothic 2 is similar to Baldurs Gate, not in looks BG was much more colourful than Gothic 2's Grittiness but in the overall game world.
I.e Dragons, Orcs, Magic, weird gods not getting along.
Neither may be realistic but they sure are fun.
_________________
I am nothing if not myself
Hungry feed me here
http://www.outwar.com/page.php?x=1352124
Go on....please make me more powerful.
All spellling mistakes are deliberate. |
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 11:22 am |
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darth
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Mar 2002
Posts: 85
Location: Montreal |
Keep in mind that in older times wether the setting is fantasy or reality women were always regarded as inferior to men. The reason was simple, men were stronger by default so they could wield the heavy swords. Women could not. You have to understand that back then the mindset was not anywhere near of what it is today. It was simple thought.
"I can lift sword, woman cannot" - "I am stronger therefore i am better"
Or
"Conan, what is best in life?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven in battle and to hear the lamentation of the women"
Conan is also set ina fantasy world althought its loosely based on nordic/eastern mythology. Valeria was a powerful woman but she was depicted as dependant on her man in the movie. And apart from her there was no other significant women in it except the moron princess. Valeria also dies pretty quickly...and is also a thief.
In G2, Just the fact that there is one woman who is a thief and goes against everything is a huge step. Cassia is quite an impressive character for her timeline. But like in all ancient or historical or mythological tales women are in the background using other means to get what they want. Mainly they control their men.
"Behind every great man there is a woman ...rolling her eyes"
Cassia sends you on a few errands and she gets what she wants. so you like a good boy go fetch rings and chalices.
To end this drivel, in gothic 1 the setting was a prison, there were NO women obviously in a man's prison except the ones sent to Gomez and they had no dialogue at all. All they did was dance/bathe and clean the floors.
So to see so many women now in G2 is very refreshing but enough, if it were anymore then this it would be too much compared to G1. I'm sure there might be more female roles in later Gothics but even if there isn't its still good enough for me. If I want a woman superhero ill go watch Buffy  Or if I wanna play as one I'll play BloodRayne.
Cheers |
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Tue Jul 15, 2003 6:42 pm |
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SirDeity
Gothic's Loyal Hero
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 602
Location: Maine, USA |
I thought the placing of women in Gothic 2 was both historically accurate, and fitting for the game as a whole. If I remember correctly, one of the strongest thiefs was a female...
The fantasy aspect is where the magic, the evil, and the existence of creatures comes in to play. The reason why these things are appropriate, is because they contribute to the fun and originality, without taking too much away from the realism. The developers set the rules, which included these fantasy creations, everything else has to be relative to historical accuracy. Those guidelines are what makes the Gothic series so great.
Besides... I thought the whore house was a pretty important role for the women in Gothic 2... The women in Gothic 2 had their work cut out for them! 
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I am the founder and former leader of a guild in EQ, retired member of The Code in EQ, original member of KOE in AOE2, past Corporal of EVO in MOHAA, respected veteran of UT 2003, a conquerer of all decent games, and an aspiring game developer.
Gothic's Loyal Hero, SirDeity |
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Wed Jul 16, 2003 5:31 pm |
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JustAidan
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 11
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historically Accurate??
Funny my history lessons didn't include orcs.
It is not about it being historically accurate even if it does resemble medival europe. It is about how this game was produced in THIS time period almost completely devoid of female characters.
Think I'll follow the opinion that it relates to the Country it was produced in until something is capable of persuding me otherwise.
Conan was produced years ago and as such is not a valid reference to our
current century.
The point is it is a game not a history book even by the most imaginative person.
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I am nothing if not myself
Hungry feed me here
http://www.outwar.com/page.php?x=1352124
Go on....please make me more powerful.
All spellling mistakes are deliberate. |
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Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:44 pm |
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SirDeity
Gothic's Loyal Hero
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 602
Location: Maine, USA |
JustAidan, you clearly didn't comprehend what I said. Read slowly and carefully this time...
quote:
Originally posted by SirDeity
The fantasy aspect is where the magic, the evil, and the existence of creatures comes in to play. The reason why these things are appropriate, is because they contribute to the fun and originality, without taking too much away from the realism. The developers set the rules, which included these fantasy creations, everything else has to be relative to historical accuracy. Those guidelines are what makes the Gothic series so great.
_________________
I am the founder and former leader of a guild in EQ, retired member of The Code in EQ, original member of KOE in AOE2, past Corporal of EVO in MOHAA, respected veteran of UT 2003, a conquerer of all decent games, and an aspiring game developer.
Gothic's Loyal Hero, SirDeity |
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Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:03 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by JustAidan
historically Accurate??
Funny my history lessons didn't include orcs.
It is not about it being historically accurate even if it does resemble medival europe. It is about how this game was produced in THIS time period almost completely devoid of female characters.
Think I'll follow the opinion that it relates to the Country it was produced in until something is capable of persuding me otherwise.
Conan was produced years ago and as such is not a valid reference to our
current century.
The point is it is a game not a history book even by the most imaginative person.
You know, it baffles me why this subject is ALWAYS coming up. You say that the answer doesn't matter to you, but I think it does. If you want to find females in Gothic 2 you don't have to look very hard. They are on the farms, and all over the city. I think what you want are women in important positions. Like maybe a trainer, one of the Paladins, or a high Magician.
Well let me ask you. Why is this so important to you? Why do you feel that PB needs to be "progressive" and put more equality into their game. Like you said -- it is their fantasy universe. They can make it any way they want. I think they made a concious decision to keep in the fantasy -- but to overlay it with old fashioned social norms. That means the men do the fighting and most of the women are in background supporting roles.
I like this decision because it is brave and different in a world where pop culture is trying to eliminate the differences between women and men. The Gothic games are made by Guys who aren't afraid to be Guys. They know what we like, and they know what is fun.
Even the minorty of women who play the Gothic games don't complain much about lack of females because they are busy having fun with the game. They don't yearn for some female contact in a virtual universe because they ARE females!!
So just play the game and leave the political statements behind..
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Wed Jul 16, 2003 10:40 pm |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
indeed just imagine a woman in High Paladin Armor  whooa i dont think so let it be like it is right now heheh |
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Thu Jul 17, 2003 12:05 pm |
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JustAidan
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Jul 2003
Posts: 11
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idiot
READ MY FIRST POST
I wanted to find out why this was i.e. due to where it was made.
There one single sentence you can't misunderstand that.
And thats all from me I'm having nothing more to do with this forum.
I.e. any annoying messages posted here are a waste of time
Want to complain send an E-mail and I may read it.
_________________
I am nothing if not myself
Hungry feed me here
http://www.outwar.com/page.php?x=1352124
Go on....please make me more powerful.
All spellling mistakes are deliberate. |
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Thu Jul 17, 2003 3:45 pm |
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konny666
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 Jul 2003
Posts: 219
Location: Babylon 6 |
Don't let the door hit your a** on the way out! |
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Thu Jul 17, 2003 4:27 pm |
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