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dagoo7
Head Merchant
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 58
Location: USA |
| Death of the single player rpg not exaggerated this time? |
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I just got very depressed researching rpgs on the horizon. Did a search for ucoming pc rpgs on ebgames. Out of 20 more than half were mmorpgs, the rest were dumbed down action rpgs, rts hybrids, and for some stupid reason a bunch of yu-gi-oh games. Closest thing to old-school rpg was NWN HotU.
Now I don't use ebgames as my main info source, but this scared me nonetheless. Just seems that the much ballyhooed renaissance in rpgs is well over and the trend is toward vanilla multi-console hybrids with certain rpg elements tacked on. For me a true rpg will always be single-player, tactical, preferablly turn-based, but I am always open to new takes on the genre. However, it seems like we're doomed to a long period of dumbing down. My depression has lately been enhanced by my take on recent events, including.
- increasing failure of developers that specialized in the genre (e.g., Black Isle),
- Bioware's apparent decision to focus on multi-console action, non-tactical rpg's (While i enjoyed KotOR, it really plays more like an action game)
- Interesting new takes on the genre like the original Deus EX, seem to be being dumbed down for multi-console and mass appeal.
- When a developer actually tries to make a solid old-school rpg like ToEE their publishers rush them and shortchange them cuz not as marketable.
- Also with respect to ToEE, Ive finally got a chance to play post-patch, and its a solid and enjoyable game that was needlessly marred by unecessary bugs of which some still remain. However, the angered response and constant flames about the game have likely made it a foregone conclusion that a new game with this engine or anything like it will be made again.
Why will developers make good rpgs if publishers only throw money at the stuff with a quick turnaround, vanilla mass market appeal, and when a developer does try they are undercut by publisher and turned on by fans. Seems like were doomed to thousands of BG Dark Alliance clones and plenty of mmorpgs. |
Mon Dec 01, 2003 7:47 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Well, there are some "real" RPGs coming out of Europe: DD2/RiftRunner, G3, and Arx2(i think), but you are right, there is some cause for worry. I assume that is because those developers don't have the same pressure to keep making the same safe games over and over yet. Except for TES games that come around infrequently, it seems that not many US game companies will be making what would be considered hard core RPGs. RPGs take patience, intelligence and persistence to play, and the only a small portion of the gaming population has, or has been exposed to games that require those attributes.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:18 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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There have already been several RPG realeases this year (Bloodmoon, Lionheart, ToEE etc), and further on the horizon we have (aside from the games already mentioned) Deus Ex 2, Fallout 3, Dungeon: Gladiator (eh?)... and so forth.
I really don't see a problem with CRPG releases being temporarily (hopefully) decreased, while more advanced MMORPGs, being the "new thang", increasing.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Mon Dec 01, 2003 8:31 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
There have already been several RPG realeases this year (Bloodmoon, Lionheart, ToEE etc), and further on the horizon we have (aside from the games already mentioned) Deus Ex 2, Fallout 3, Dungeon: Gladiator (eh?)... and so forth.
I really don't see a problem with CRPG releases being temporarily (hopefully) decreased, while more advanced MMORPGs, being the "new thang", increasing.
Are you saying that there should be less CRPGs. That we on the PC should be deprived of RPGs? I have to heartily disaggree if that is indeed your point.
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OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
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Mon Dec 01, 2003 9:44 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Yes, I think this RPG cycle has "peaked" and will decline...but I also think this is inherent in many markets and they'll come back again. Cold comfort, I know.
As to some of the bigger issues: it's all about money. It's significantly more expensive to create games than it used to be (because we require much more sophosticated graphics, sound, testing and so on which require large teams to create rather than the old one man show) and publishers are now large multinationals (in the main) with shareholders to satisfy.
This is also why some of the best potential for RPGs is in Eastern Europe, where there's a ton of product (The Fall, for one example). Fingers crossed they can improve their productions values and language barriers. 
There is quite a bit of growth (as you mention) in hybrids - fortunately I don't mind something like Deus Ex (the original - not the new one) and hopefully things like Vampire, Xenus, STALKER and so on. Not as much as a hardcore, old-school RPG but...
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Mon Dec 01, 2003 10:47 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
This is also why some of the best potential for RPGs is in Eastern Europe, where there's a ton of product (The Fall, for one example). Fingers crossed they can improve their productions values and language barriers.
Since when is Berlin in Eastern Europe? 
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 12:18 am |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
I don't think we actually need any more genuinly Old School RPGs. We already have plenty of classics that are still fun to play! Let RPGs evolve. Just don't let them screw themselves.
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:36 am |
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dagoo7
Head Merchant
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 58
Location: USA |
quote:
Originally posted by MageofFire
I don't think we actually need any more genuinly Old School RPGs. We already have plenty of classics that are still fun to play! Let RPGs evolve. Just don't let them screw themselves.
I think you missed my point, I'm a big fan of true evolutions of the genre, but IMHO they are not evolving and in fact or devolving. Take Deus Ex for example, great new take (or at least new take copied from System Shock) on rpgs with plenty of depth, freedom, and character development. It looks to me, for the reasons I stated above, that Deus Ex 2 has eschewed all this for multi-console and mass market appeal and is now an "rpg" only in name. Evolving is good, creating dumbed down and short attention span hybrids is bad.
quote:
There have already been several RPG realeases this year (Bloodmoon, Lionheart, ToEE etc), and further on the horizon we have (aside from the games already mentioned) Deus Ex 2, Fallout 3, Dungeon: Gladiator (eh?)... and so forth.
While I see your point, here is my assessment of that list:
- Bloodmoon - expansion of already existing game
- Lionheart - great concept rushed by publisher and ruined by abandoning original gameplay concept to make supposedly more marketable action hybrid.
- ToEE - great game rushed by publishers, rabidly turned on by fans, therefore likely not successful or praised enough to get more games with this engine made or a developer to make such a complicated attempt.
- Deus Ex 2 - Everything I hear and read suggests a much dumbed down game from the original.
- Fallout 3 - Great if Black Isle lasts long enough to develop it, even if they do may be their last gasp.
- Dungeon Gladiator- hope the best for this one.
With one or two minor exceptions, I hardly see how this is a rosy picture for the genre.
quote:
Well, there are some "real" RPGs coming out of Europe: DD2/RiftRunner, G3, and Arx2(i think)
Agree with you wholeheartedly there. However, I'm still concerned about some of these games in the US market. Gothic 2 was a great rpg and a shot in the arm for me (got English version long time ago) but its very delayed release, lack of marketing, and lukewarm (to say the least) reception in the US seems to indicate that to at least some degree these developers have given up on US market as the games are not sellable in this market due to dumbing down of genre. If this continues many of these developers may decide its not worth the effort to localize and market in the states.[/quote] |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:08 pm |
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Arma
Mysterious Lady
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 1230
Location: in the middle of hell |
Well, I agree with Dhruin - I really think that there will be quite a few RPGs coming from Eastern European countries.
For the moment I have heard that Haemimont Games (developer of Tzar and Celtic Kings) is developing an RPG, and I have heard some people from Black Sea Studios (currently developing Knights of Honor) about developing an RPG ... Also I heard some talk about The Cult - a cool looking RPG coming sooo (I hope) from Poland ... Needless to say, from games I have seen so far from Russia, they have quite a few good developres there, and I have personally seen several not so bad games from there .... |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:29 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
@dagoo7-No, I see your point. I did say that I hope RPGs won't screw themselves. I aggree about the multi-platform thing. It's not right.
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:25 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by dagoo7
- ToEE - great game rushed by publishers, rabidly turned on by fans, therefore likely not successful or praised enough to get more games with this engine made or a developer to make such a complicated attempt.
You said more than once for a few games that the publisher ruined them. Especially in case of ToEE I think you shouldn´t see this so onedimensional. After the post mortem (by the producer, as I remember) last week it´s clear ToEE was nothing more than contract work. Atari payed the devs fixed sum N split into n milestones to develop a game as specified in the design docs. Troik signed a contract about this. It was _their_ responsibility to deliver professional quality before the deadline. They failed. That Atari didn´t want to extend the budget once more, after the additional 2 months for the new rules, is a simple business decision. Atari decided more investment in this project wouldn´t make sense.
In case of Lionheart it´s quite possible the developer simply cannot create better games. Just look at Reflexive´s back catalog.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:05 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
This is also why some of the best potential for RPGs is in Eastern Europe, where there's a ton of product (The Fall, for one example). Fingers crossed they can improve their productions values and language barriers.
Since when is Berlin in Eastern Europe?
Um...At the start of the sentence I was thinking about some Polish stuff (like Trinity) and then Russian/CIS stuff (various 1C projects) but by the end of the sentence I was going in a different direction and didn't read the whole thing over. 
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:58 pm |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
quote:
Originally posted by Lady Armageddona
Well, I agree with Dhruin - I really think that there will be quite a few RPGs coming from Eastern European countries.
For the moment I have heard that Haemimont Games (developer of Tzar and Celtic Kings) is developing an RPG, and I have heard some people from Black Sea Studios (currently developing Knights of Honor) about developing an RPG ... Also I heard some talk about The Cult - a cool looking RPG coming sooo (I hope) from Poland ... Needless to say, from games I have seen so far from Russia, they have quite a few good developres there, and I have personally seen several not so bad games from there ....
Even with many RPGs in development in Europe, some, possibly many, of them will never see American shores, because of distribution and marketing problems. As others have mentioned, Gothic and Gothic 2 were received here with little fanfare. Same with Divine Divinity and Arx Fatalis. Marketing is practically zilch. I've walked into Electronique Boutique and heard the salespeople recommend other games like Diablo 2 over RPGs like Gothic or Gothic 2 based on a "lower" score they read in a gaming mag. There are some independent game developers like Spiderweb that produce old-school RPGs, but those are still very much a niche product. There's no lack of talent for developing RPGs, but priorities have changed.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:38 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
In response to some of the orignal posts points:
Kotor is an rpg definitely. I mean... its Neverwinter nights almost exactly but better. How can one be an rpg and the other not? They are the same thing.
Rift runner will likely be the next one I really enjoy. Then Dungeon lords. Those two arent too far off.
I didnt like TOEE... because its just a bad game, not because of the bugs. It does have a good interface though and nice graphics so perhaps I would check out another d and d game by troika. But Id wait to buy it definitely. I actually dont want to have anything to do with a series of retro d and d from the 80s modules crpgs. I think they would all suck regardless of bugs.
One thing Id like to point out : More games have already been released in 2003 than any other year by a HUGE margin. The amount of people in the game creating industry making games right now is just huge compared to days past. There will be so many crpgs made you couldnt possibly even start them all. I just did lionheart > TOEE > KOTOR and I couldnt finish one before the other came out. They wont all be hits like baldurs gate, but theyll be coming and they wont be slowing down. |
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Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:51 am |
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dagoo7
Head Merchant
Joined: 07 Nov 2002
Posts: 58
Location: USA |
quote:
You said more than once for a few games that the publisher ruined them. Especially in case of ToEE I think you shouldn´t see this so onedimensional.
Point well taken. My thoughts were just based on my uninformed ramblings. Thanks for the background. Looks like the end result is the same though in that were not likely to see another game with this engine or even a similar attempt.
quote:
Kotor is an rpg definitely. I mean... its Neverwinter nights almost exactly but better. How can one be an rpg and the other not? They are the same thing.
My point was not that KotOR is not an rpg, i played and enjoyed it quite a bit. Its just that it moves things much more along the lines of action games. Combat is not all that tactical in that you can basically not do anything and let your party autoattack and easily beat 90% of the game. Often battles were over before I knew they started. By no means nowhere as bad as dungeon siege, but one could argue some similarities. Good game and when I referenced it I was just trying to make comparison with old-school tactical rpgs and trying to illustrate the trend to focusing on console gameplay first and making games that dont require as much involvement.
quote:
I didnt like TOEE... because its just a bad game, not because of the bugs.
This is what I don't understand. From my own subjective perspective this is a great game. I just don't understand why there is so much anger towards the game out there. I know the initial release was buggy and the bugs are by no means all gone now. But the implementation of detailed tactical combat and rules system seems incredible to me. I really had no technical issues and only stopped playing prior to patch based on comments on forum, probably wouldnt have noticed most of the bugs unless someone told me about them. Biggest problems for me was length, enemy AI, and ocassional balance but these are all issues that could easily be addressed in a sequel. Maybe some find the combat too detailed and tactical and therefore tedious. I heard this complaint about Wiz 8 but it hasnt stopped me from playing through 3 times so far. Maybe I am just a dinosaur. |
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Wed Dec 03, 2003 1:45 pm |
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