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| Who will be U.S president |
| Bush |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
| Kerry |
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46% |
[ 14 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Uh... you ask me why I'm against a war in Iraq if the democracy wants it. I say i'ts because I believe it's wrong. Doesn't matter if the majority wants it. If the majority wants a president, but don't get the one they choose, it's not very democratic. And I don't have to like it. If the majority wants a war, and get it, you could call it democracy, but that does NOT mean that I MUST LIKE IT nor that I must believe it's justified. See the friggin' difference??
You see the ying and the yang, grasshoppah?
I agree, America is not much of a democracy, but as representitive democracies go, we are doing all right. And if the majority people vote for a president and the electoral college dictates another president wins that does NOT mean THEY MUST LIKE IT nor that they must believe it's justified. They just need to know how the system works. But seeing as historically the majority vote has always coincided with who is president (last election included, even when dismissing all the partisan propiganda from both sides), there is nothing to worry about.
My point was consistancy, and your lack of it. If the people's voice should decide who is president, then the people's voice should decide if an American invasion is sactioned or not. Your opinion doesn't matter when compared to the majority. Protected freedoms do not matter because the majority can vote them away. The rest of the world doesn't matter. If I declare my house Roqua Land and a seperate country and wage war on America I don't care if America or Cananda or Mexico or the UN sactions it, just the majority vote (which would probably be my wife's OK). Consistency keeps the ying and yang in harmony, Tiger.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
Fri Mar 12, 2004 5:44 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
My point was consistancy, and your lack of it. If the people's voice should decide who is president, then the people's voice should decide if an American invasion is sactioned or not. Your opinion doesn't matter when compared to the majority. Protected freedoms do not matter because the majority can vote them away. The rest of the world doesn't matter. If I declare my house Roqua Land and a seperate country and wage war on America I don't care if America or Cananda or Mexico or the UN sactions it, just the majority vote (which would probably be my wife's OK). Consistency keeps the ying and yang in harmony, Tiger.
You STILL seem to equate democracy with 'the majority is always right', which is far from the truth.
Your pick of which to concider a majority is also dubious, and depends entirely on what you feel should be used as the majority. Do I think that the Iraq war should have been carried out if the majority wanted it, even if I disliked the idea? No, since it wasn't up to the majority in the end, and even if the majority wanted the war and if it was up to it, it would be democratic to start a war. BUT it STILL doesn't mean that I have to think that the war is a good idea.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
I honestly supposed to take that hate-spewing rhetoric as credible?
I've seen the ads, they aren't attack ads. I've also heard from other people who had loved ones die in 9-11 and they have no problem with Bush using those images. I also find it ironic that the people he does quote from belong to a group that's backrolled by a Teresa Heinz Kerry foundation.
Fair enough, that first link may have been over-the-top. How about these?
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/05/politics/campaign/05BUSH.html
http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2004/03/05/ads/
(It's also funny how even firemen are angry about those ads).
quote:
Originally posted by Val
As for the commission not having complete access, I agree. There are things that the public doesn't need access to if it'll hurt national security. In this case, I'll choose patience and wait for the facts before drawing any conculsions. We'll see if Bush disappoints me here. Heaven knows he's disappointed me on other issues, but not enough for me to see Kerry as a viable alternative
Isn't it the "facts" that the commission are looking for? Are you saying that it's okay for Bush to hide his shady buisiness and potential lies, because it might hurt him to do otherwise? And he claims to hate terrorists? Talk about two-faced... ness.
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
Everyone seems to labor under this illusion that ol Dubya lied about Iraq. The UN only whined about Iraq threat for ten years. They are the ones who passed the resolutions. If anything, they ballyhooed so much about the Hussein regime that someone finally did something about it. That someone was Dubya. He saw the carnage of 9/11 and realized for once and for all, something had to be done before it was too late.
Didn't you hear about the oh so imminent WMD threat? The so-called Al Quaida links with Saddam? All of which were proven not true? Maybe not unfounded, since Bush #1 sold Saddam so many WMDs, but still. Or are you saying that the Bush administration had no idea that they were clueless on this? I don't know which is worse.
Yeah, he came, he saw oil and a nation of non-democratic non-christian infidels, and he charged in without any proof of his claim, and without reason except for that he didn't like the guy in power. WHEN you are member of an organization promoting international law, it knid of looks good to follow said laws and procedures, not brush them aside in an isolationistic fashion.
The UN didn't do much about Iraq except placing sanctions on it because it was a basically harmless nation.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 6:55 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Hexy, Do you believe the big UN opponents of invading Iraq had no economical reasons to oppose? That they opposed purely on belief it was "wrong"?
I am not a big Bush fan, nor a fan of any politician. Bush's steel policies won him the pennsylvania lobbyists but for ever 1 steel job he saved he lost 16 in car manufacturing and related fields.
I never understood why some people's argument against Arnold's governatorial election was that he had no political experience. How is not yet being corrupt, a liar, in a lobbyist's pocket bad? He will enter office with pure asperations and a belief in the system. When he gets some political experience is when you shouldn't vote for him.
I never understand why people point out Bush's lies, or Clinton's or any politicians. Just wait until they talk, no reason to point out the lies. The worst is when the partisanship gets thrown in and politicians start pointing out lies while adding their own.
I am a libertarian and a true conservative. I believe people should have the right to smoke crack while masterbating in public contemplating what prostitute's service they will purchase with the money they have from paying minimal taxes and getting excited to fire someone at his work on monday because he owns it and just maybe because he doesn't like the sneakers the person wears. I believe in freedom. I believe in indecency. I believe in people having absurd rights I do not believe in or would ever engage in. I believe in small government, and I also beieve the government is not my friend and does not know my best interest, or how best to spend my money.
I believe that if people want their tax money going to support losers that could, but won't, support themselves they should pay--not me. I don't care. I don't care what your sob storey is. I don't want my money going into your pocket when I see a help wanted sign at McDonalds. I don't care that you had 4 kids by the time you were twenty and need money raising them, plenty of gay couples would love to take the children who you can't support off your hands and you can waddle your fat ass over to a job. I don't care that you think children should not see nipple or hear some curse words so everything should be censored because of the kids. Control your childs environment, not mine. I don't care that my cigarette smoke bothers you, chances are you drive a gas-gussoling SUV or Truck that is unfairly and greedily depleting the Earth's natural resources, and you eat at fast food restaurants whose cow fields are the main source of Rain Forest depletion and all the cows emmit deadlier chemicals than my smoke can that are horrible for the earth';s atmosphere. Chances are my smoke is as annoying as you are, and chances are you also cruise in the passing lane and deserve the lung cancer my cigarette hopefully will give you. Damn passing lane cruisers.
"The only freedom which counts is the freedom to do what some other people think to be wrong. There is no point in demanding freedom to do that which all will applaud. All the so-called liberties or rights are things which have to be asserted against others who claim that if such things are to be allowed their own rights are infringed or their own liberties threatened. This is always true, even when we speak of the freedom to worship, of the right of free speech or association, or of public assembly. If we are to allow freedoms at all there will constantly be complaints that either the liberty itself or the way in which it is exercised is being abused, and, if it is a genuine freedom, these complaints will often be justified. There is no way of having a free society in which there is not abuse. Abuse is the very hallmark of liberty." -- Former Lord Chief Justice Halisham
"When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, 'This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are forbidden to know,' the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives. Mighty little force is needed to control a man whose mind has been hoodwinked; contrariwise, no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything--you can't conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." --Robert A. Heinlein
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 7:46 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Hexy, Do you believe the big UN opponents of invading Iraq had no economical reasons to oppose? That they opposed purely on belief it was "wrong"?
Yeah, they probably had economic reasons. But, they also had the rules on their side. IF you have rules and want to make others play by them, you should as well, otherwise it might look... hypocritical?
As for the rest... uh... democratic goverments often try to take care of all their citizens. Democracy can be likened to compromizing to help/benefit as many citizens as possible, no one gets the entire cake (well, very rarely at least). And most of the time, you have to do stuff you don't want to do to benefit the whole.
Some people don't want to help others or themselves, finding it's easier to close their eyes putting, their fingers into their ears and shout 'Don't care! Can't hear you!', which is kind of going against a democratic society.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 8:35 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
The good news is that all threads come to an end 
From a socialist point of view the democrats and republicans are not much of a difference. They are both right of the centre. The republicans are just a bit further away from it. The democrats aren't even close to being socialists, atleast not to a socialist. So as it doesn't matter too much I would say that if someone has to change the constitution then they should change it to allow Arnie to be president
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 11:09 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
From a socialist point of view the democrats and republicans are not much of a difference. They are both right of the centre. The republicans are just a bit further away from it. The democrats aren't even close to being socialists, atleast not to a socialist. So as it doesn't matter too much I would say that if someone has to change the constitution then they should change it to allow Arnie to be president
It certainly depend on from what country the so called "Socialist" is comming from. I dare to say that there are big differences on a socialist from "Holland", USA, Germany and Denmark for that matter.
But I also don't think that there are big differences between democrats and republicans, perhaps during the election, but not when they finally sit in the oval chambre.
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Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:12 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
... So as it doesn't matter too much I would say that if someone has to change the constitution then they should change it to allow Arnie to be president
Yay! I'd vote for the guy in second!! What a delightful change from the usual mealy (as in meal worm) mouthed politicians!!
@Bartacus - As to CMB's (Cruise Missile Bill's) foreign policy ... it basically boiled down to a circus designed only to boost his popularity ratings at home. "Hey lookit me! I'm being a tough guy. Lookit! I just ordered the launch of a dozen cruise missiles at suspected targets. Man, those terrorists are a real threat. Yep. Never know what you could do with aspirin. Deadly stuff. (Yeah, so what if I just made the worst speech of my political career concerning the Monica Lewinski (sp?) mess ... it's just coincidence)."
Sorry that particular episode consigned Clinton to the schmuck pile forever for me. I am never crazy about bombing people ... but to do it *JUST* to recover from a bad speech!!??!??!?
Oh yeah, Clinton supporters have told me that those targets had been on the potential hit list for over 6 months. That makes it even worse! Instead of acting when the info was fresh (and maybe relevant) he waited until he needed a boost at home. Phhht. Such sanctimonious crud makes me ill.
Bartacus, I am really sorry if I offended you with my outburst. I hope you will forgive me. I know its no excuse, but I respect you enough that I felt I owed you a response, even though Clinton's 'foreign policy' always gets my blood boiling!!
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Just plain clueless= |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 1:40 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
***************Last "ISSUES" Post*********************
Then back to fun, this kinda stuff is such a drag. I hate serious topics, really. I got the day off work, i want to finish MW today ='.'=
Especially, as Ive said, the conversation is with mostly people who were born and raised in a completely different country and political system. It's like arguing with a lifelong vegetarian about how great meat is. Polemics101. I know my inflections on the word "socialist" are mostly percieved as disdain, but I think it is on par with how our 2 parties here are seen as. Everyone thinks they are doing it right, when in fact there is much to learn about both forms of govt and politics. They both have their strengths and weaknesses, and I do believe that our system is alot more productive, but sure it is far from purrfect. Some people dont care about productive, or they have a different view of what productivity is. Really, I harbor no ill feelings towards our socialist pals, this site itself is a testament to the common ideas and dreams we all share. Im thankful everytime I come here for the work Myrthos & Rend have done to make this site what it is.
Over the course of the last year, the Prez has done quite a few things that have really ticked me off. Such as the big assault on the first amendment when it comes to political speech. Anyone who knows beans about the constitution, knows that "freedom of speech" protection in the first amendment was primarily made to protect political speech. That's why it's such a stunning slap in the face. It's even more mind boggling that Bush signed it, angering conservatives big time. Then the steel tariff thing was a huge mistake IMHO, the business I work in uses steel primarily, and we have seen prices go thru the roof. Again, conservatives are left scratching their heads. Then a plan floated to actually legalize anyone who wants to work here? Letting Vicente Fox dictate our immigration policy? You want to talk about the American Right hitting the roof, that's exactly what happened. A brand new entitlement, when we think social security is already on the rails? That's why I for the life of me do not understand the irrational hatred of the American Left, this guy has pretty much everything theyve wanted, and more! He has actually out-spent Clinton when it comes to domestic issues, and he's given them most of what they want. That's why I think their opposition is basically this, they just literally hate, thats all. They are all about pure hatred, period. They hate Republicans no matter what they do, and that my friends is why Bush will be re-elected. I have no doubt about that at all. Noone is going to elect a bunch of little children who are all about image, and no substance.
The 9/11 ads flap is just a prime example of this. The Democrats have spent the entire last 2 years politicizing 9/11. From "what did you know and when.." to literally accusing him of orchestrating it. These jackals have been constant on the attack when it comes to 9/11. Prez puts out an inspirational, positive, ad featuring 9/11 as part of it and all hell breaks loose on the Left. The american people shot back with "Look here you grown children, that was the biggest American catastrophe weve ever had. The campaign better DAMN WELL be all about 9/11, how we got thru it, and just what the hell the people who want to run this country are going to do about making sure it doesnt happen again." Why is this even an issue? I woke up one day and suddenly all sense went out the window completely? Think FDR didnt mention Pearl Harbor? It's jus utterly nonsensical, and childish sniping from the peanut gallery by a bunch of sore losers who have been getting creamed by the electorate for the last 4 years.
As much as Bush has went to the Left on alot of things, I am still sure that yes, there *is* a major difference between our 2 parties.
First off: foreign policy. Im not even going to go into it, you know. Im tired of talking about it.
Second: tax cuts, giving back more of the money people pay in federal income taxes. We would have never gotten those thru under a Democrat. I am not rich by any means, and I got 1K back this year as opposed to 3,4 or 500 at most in years past. Thank God! And thanks to Dubya, I truly needed it.
Third:Banning infanticide, otherwise known as partial birth abortion, and anything other than traditional marriage. Again, something the Left has a real hard time doing since 2 their main constituencies are advocates for both.
Fourth:The right to posess firearms is a firm stance of the Right, the left pretty much hates guns. There are exceptions of course, but not many.
Fifth:Racial Issues. The Right is against the obfuscated racism IMHO of things like quotas and affirmative action. For all the talk of wanting to be color-blind, the Left are the first ones to point out and trumpet someones race or any other difference. Ok, I got a little dig in there I guess, I was supposed to just name the ways.
I know it doesnt look like there is a difference at times, Ive wondered myself, but there clearly is between the two parties. Id vote for a Democrat in a heartbeat if he was tough with immigration and foreign policy in general, and wasnt a sellout to the militant homosexuals and the abortion racketeers, but that will never happen. The Dem party would go broke! All I know is, Im voting for Dubya. Not out of hatred for the opposition, but because of the core issues that i agree with. As I truly believe most Americans will as well ='.'=
Ok, I went a little long, but that's what I do most times ='.'=
Thats it! Kaput! Back to your regularly scheduled programing
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:20 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
... the conversation is with mostly people who were born and raised in a completely different country and political system. It's like arguing with a lifelong vegetarian about how great meat is. ...
Well tiger, point taken. Although probably hell has to get several degrees colder until I agree with some of your political beliefs I do agree with this one
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:43 pm |
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Aram
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Feb 2004
Posts: 23
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As much as I despise Bush, I think he will win. Republicans are better at herding masses than anyone else on Earth, while Democrats fight for any scrap they can muster. I would bet my life on Bush capturing Bin Laden about two weeks before the election. Just enough time to influence the masses and prevent any major comeback.
I personally hate the fact that we judge elections on Dem and Rep, when the country was founded they argued against such an idea, but Americans simply love to herd, it is the most basic instinct in nature. As long as people see safety in numbers, they wont really care about issues as long as their team wins. There should only be two political parties in this country, the American Party, and the Humanists Party. Government was made to serve society as a whole, but we've divided into two factions just to protect ourselves. |
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:58 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
The two-party system has always worked for societies benefits (in the beginning it was the federalists instead of republicans, and the smarter people saw the benefits of a bipartisan system). The more vehemently the asses and elephants don't get along the less gets done. The less that gets done the better scociety is off. It is a good system until everyone starts working together, then you get things passes like the Patriot act. I was scared for a while when everyone bonded together after 9/11.
The only branch of governemnt that is way too unchecked is the judicial branch. Judges are like militant generals, snapping orders around like they're God. They always yell at me, I hate them and their big heads and control hungry ways. I would love to hold one down and urinate all over them. But other than that, the judicial branch has way to much power and leeway when it comes to laws and interpritation of the constitution. I wish the other branches of governemnt had full veto power of the judicial branch.
@Aram "Republicans are better at herding masses than anyone else on Earth." So good that the last election was so close? What if Nadar didn't run? Or Clinton, he was a Republican mole? So good that they control all the media? Or do the Republicans get only Fox News (which is moderate)? The Republicans must also have Hollywood in their hip pocket. Sean Penn is another mole. What about unions? The masses of teamsters and AFL-CIO member affiliates are diggy-down with the Reps.
The Republicans are horrible at herding the masses. Who was the last charasmatic Republican president? Or charasmatic Republican? Name one that could really get the masses together and fired up. Nixon, Reagan, W. Bush got the masses together and fired up, but in a an anti-charasmatic "I hate you with every fiber of my soul" kind of way. They get the opposition fired up. Democrates are mass herders. Look at an antiwar ralley. Those people are off the wall and doing this and that. Look at a support the Troops ralley, they are usually dull and bland and not too exciting.
The democrates are very hatefull for peace lovers, but they are creative and the rich ones are for equity as long as it doesn't effect them too much.
The republicans are dull, uncharasmatic nipple-lickers that are big on efficiency and want it to effect them. Logic makes sense to me so I usually end up voting republican, though I am Jeffersonian Libertarian and an incestuous, pot-smoking narcisisist who is just a little boy crazy.
Does anyone read my posts or does the length make you skip it?
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:57 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
As for the rest... uh... democratic goverments often try to take care of all their citizens. Democracy can be likened to compromizing to help/benefit as many citizens as possible, no one gets the entire cake (well, very rarely at least). And most of the time, you have to do stuff you don't want to do to benefit the whole.
Some people don't want to help others or themselves, finding it's easier to close their eyes putting, their fingers into their ears and shout 'Don't care! Can't hear you!', which is kind of going against a democratic society.
I think you are mistaking democracy for socialism. And forced kindness is no kindness at all. And a society that fosters unchecked support to those that are able, will find that it has fostered a dependancy problem. I never have walked by a beggar and not contributed at least a dollar or more. I have never turned down a plea for help. I go out of my way to help people that need it. I personally will go without to help someone else. And for living in a democracy I have never been afforded the oppertunity to vote on if I want to help pay for other people's mistakes, or to support them, or how that support is offered. Would someone that had no income or a possible source of income take larger precautions against pregnancy? If welfare and subsidized housing (section  had time limits and greater restraints would that help motivate governemnt supported people to find work? If I ran the system there would be help, but it would be help based on motivating the people to help themselves with a definite end. That is not how it works now.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 5:42 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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@Roqua: Yes, I did have bit too much social influence in my argument, but it still stands true if you look at today's "democratic" goverments.
quote:
Originally posted by xSamhainx
Especially, as Ive said, the conversation is with mostly people who were born and raised in a completely different country and political system. It's like arguing with a lifelong vegetarian about how great meat is.
Discussions become so much easier when you believe that no one can discuss something they have knowledge about, simply because they haven't been through life the exact same way you have, don't they?
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 10:54 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
The statement works in all kinds of lovely ways. Even if someone makes a comment on muslims and isn't one him or herself and doesn't live there.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Sat Mar 13, 2004 1:18 pm |
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