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Hi-Necro
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Oct 2003
Posts: 104
Location: The Land of Eternal Hiding |
@Ratavuk:
All right! 
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道可道也，非恒道也。名可名也，非恒名也。
—— 老子 [春秋] |
Tue Aug 23, 2005 1:27 pm |
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Stiler
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 230
Location: TN, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Sem
quote:
Originally posted by Stiler
I think that even though the name means "two hander" that it's still referring to a specific sword. Of all the info I can find on "Zweihanders" they all talk about it as though it's a very specific type of sword...
But it is a very specific sword, one that is wielding with two hands instead of one.  In appearance there are many differences.
So all two handed swords in germany were made with the purpose of cutting off heads of pikes, having a longer then normal hilt, with soldiers that were paid double normal soldiers that used them?
I'm trying to say, why the name literally means two hander, that the name refers to a specific type of sword, at least of all the info that I can find that's what every single thing points to, no info I find says that they are just "any Two handed german swords." |
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Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:31 pm |
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bigboy_
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 118
Location: Romania-Transilvania |
Man I can`t believe this. I just read on gamestar.hu that JoWood is in serious money problem. They`re profits are down (they don`t even have a profit anymore  ) and it could well indanger Gothic 3s` and SpellForce2s` release. D*mn it I`m so afraid!!!! 
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But one thing is certain: we shall meet again! 
Last edited by bigboy_ on Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:02 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:29 pm |
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Stiler
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 230
Location: TN, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by bigboy_
Man I can`t believe this. I just read on gamestar.hu that JoWood is in serious money problem. They`re profits or down (they don`t even have rofit anymore ) and it could well indanger Gothic 3s` and SpellForce2s` release. D*mn it I`m so afraid!!!!
Yea, you and me both. The Stargate developers said that jowood fired them because they couldn't pay them, and instead of admitting that as the reason jowood made up something about the "quality" of the game not being good enough.
I think jowood is getting into some serious money issues and I hope that something happens to save them. |
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Tue Aug 23, 2005 7:36 pm |
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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Stiler
So you're telling me that every two handed sword was used against pike formations and any soldier trained to use one was double paid?
Actually the 2H swords were not used in close combat in general (though who's to say that there weren't any warriors who didn't use it). Originally the 2H swords were made for one purpose - to 'cleave' the riders off their horses. Pikes and lances and such are not that effective always, partly due to their size. Also lances, for example, were used by riders as an 'extension', sort of, to deliver a blow while on the move, but never really used for anything else. Basically 'on-hit-wonder'.
With 2H swords, the footman could actually knock the rider off of it's horse and then proceed in melee combat. It's easier to knock the rider off of the horse with 2H sword then a pike or lance, because the blade 'covers' a wider area then the pointy end of the lance. Generally the 2H sword was then discarded for lighter and easie to use 1H weapons. 2H swords do weight quite a bit, I've held the real mediveal 2H swords in my hands in historic museum and while I am, in real life, with quite strong build, I'd have difficulties to fight with that kind of weapon as well, especially if the opponent would use faster and lighter 1H weapons. However, knocking a rider off of his horse with it - very doable.
As for the word "zweihänder", then the modern games have marked this down as a weapon type, while in reality it just means that - two handed - when translated. Scots called their weapons claymores, and they'd call german 2H swords the same in Scotland, and at the same time germans would call any 2H sword from anywhere as 'zweihänder'. It just notes the usage of the weapons, overall type, not a specific weapon
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Been there, done that . . . |
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:10 am |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by Whailor
Generally the 2H sword was then discarded for lighter and easie to use 1H weapons. 2H swords do weight quite a bit, I've held the real mediveal 2H swords in my hands in historic museum and while I am, in real life, with quite strong build, I'd have difficulties to fight with that kind of weapon as well, especially if the opponent would use faster and lighter 1H weapons.
Pretty typical, that in the medieval times the knights and other warriors have never fought with two-handed swords as we do in rpg's. And you're also wearing some heavy armor too, so swinging a 6 feet sword as the hero does in Gothic, naaaa.
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 9:19 am |
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Stiler
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 230
Location: TN, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Whailor
Actually the 2H swords were not used in close combat in general (though who's to say that there weren't any warriors who didn't use it). Originally the 2H swords were made for one purpose - to 'cleave' the riders off their horses. Pikes and lances and such are not that effective always, partly due to their size. Also lances, for example, were used by riders as an 'extension', sort of, to deliver a blow while on the move, but never really used for anything else. Basically 'on-hit-wonder'.
With 2H swords, the footman could actually knock the rider off of it's horse and then proceed in melee combat. It's easier to knock the rider off of the horse with 2H sword then a pike or lance, because the blade 'covers' a wider area then the pointy end of the lance. Generally the 2H sword was then discarded for lighter and easie to use 1H weapons. 2H swords do weight quite a bit, I've held the real mediveal 2H swords in my hands in historic museum and while I am, in real life, with quite strong build, I'd have difficulties to fight with that kind of weapon as well, especially if the opponent would use faster and lighter 1H weapons. However, knocking a rider off of his horse with it - very doable.
As for the word "zweihänder", then the modern games have marked this down as a weapon type, while in reality it just means that - two handed - when translated. Scots called their weapons claymores, and they'd call german 2H swords the same in Scotland, and at the same time germans would call any 2H sword from anywhere as 'zweihänder'. It just notes the usage of the weapons, overall type, not a specific weapon
So why is it, that every little info I can find says:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweihander
quote:
They were typically used by the front lines of the Landsknechte, where they would be used to hew through the opposing pikemen and spearmen whose spears presented a difficult barrier for normal weapons and calvary.
http://www.thearma.org/essays/2HGS.html (I guess this explains the name a bit too)
quote:
They are really those specialized forms of the later 1500-1600s, such as the Swiss/German Dopplehänder ("double-hander") or Bidenhänder ("both-hander"). The popular names Zweihander / Zweyhander are actually relatively modern not historical terms. English ones were sometimes referred to as "slaughter-swords" after the German, Schlachterschwerter ("battle swords"). While used similarly to longswords, and even employed in some duels, they were not identical in handling or performance. No major historical teachings detailing fencing with these specific weapons are known. These weapons were used primarily for fighting among pike-squares where they would hack paths through knocking aside poles, possibly even lobbing the ends off opposing halberds and pikes then slashing and stabbing among the ranks. Wielded by the largest and most impressive soldiers (Doppelsoldners, who received double pay), they were also used to guard banners and castle walls. The Italian humanist historian Paulus Jovius writing in the early 1500s also described the two-hand great sword as being used by Swiss soldiers to chop the shafts of pikes at the battle of Fornovo in 1495.
I have to disagree with you about two handed swords being an anti calvery weapon first and foremost. Halbreds/pikes were much much more common weapons for that purpose throughout history.
You have to have a wide space to try to swing the sword at the right moment to "catch" the rider, so you'd be hard pressed to stand in formation with your friends close by and let a horse pass you then swing into them. Pikes and such were much much easier to use in formation against calvary.
Just take a look at how much the Swiss valued pikeman and what they accomplished with them.
Why two handed swords could be used against mounted riders, pikes/halbreds and such were quite a bit more used then two handed swords against calvary.
It can take quite a bit to time a swing just right to dismount a rider, mainly because the force required to do so would require them to be closer to you then a pike would. With a pike you can have soldiers stand in formation and they can stop calvary from a greater distance , on a charge.
Try doin that with a bunch of two handed swords when you get charged, you'd be hurting if that was your main defense against calvary.
Btw, swords don't weigh nearly as much as most people think. Modern swords are nothing to go by, they are so absurdly weight wise because people buy into the "higher weight = better quality" when the opposite is generally true.
Most one handers weighed between 2-5lbs with the two handers around 5-8'ish pounds.
Armor aswell has been put into the "weight" myth. Plate armour was pretty light, around 65lbs or so. A knight could easily run, jump, get up, mount his own horse, etc. Some well crafted suits could weigh even less. Plus you have to remember the weight is put throughout your entire body, unlike chain where it's mostly put on your shoulders. |
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:16 am |
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LordHagen
Village Dweller
Joined: 15 Jul 2005
Posts: 21
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Did Pb say what will be gothic3 max resolution? (1600x1200 or 1280x1024?)
maybe they said it before I dunno
And the system requirements are very unsure yet (in an interview it was told 5900 or 6600 Gt card would be good)? I wonder if a 6800Gt 256mb will be enough for a 1600x1200 res with everything to max +antialias. etc?
Anyway we have time but I think in febuary a 7800 Gt will still be expensive, maybe 300 euros?(~480 euros now)
It is principaly for the monitor I am worrying, I would like to buy a 250 euros 19" LCD but max res is 1200x1024 or less. If gothic3 has 1600x1200 I'll buy a 19" CTR-heavy monitor (180 euros).  |
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 2:58 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
I should wait with buying anything until the requirements are known for sure. PB doesn't even know it themselves, because on one hand the game will get much more detail and lighting effects etc that makes the game slower and on the other hand the engine is far from optimised yet, optimising makes it faster again.
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:11 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Talking about hardware requirements so early is a waste of time.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:12 pm |
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Stiler
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 230
Location: TN, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
Talking about hardware requirements so early is a waste of time.
You should see the oblivion board. New one of "will my computer run oblivion?" posts every day. |
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Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:49 pm |
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Sem
Solid as a Rock
Joined: 01 Mar 2004
Posts: 3386
Location: at the Dot |
quote:
Originally posted by Stiler
You should see the oblivion board. New one of "will my computer run oblivion?" posts every day.
Hopefully the gothicdot members aren't as dumb as the ones on the oblivion board.
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"Who are we to call this planet Earth, when it's clearly Ocean."
-- News Editor of GothicDot --
-- Moderator of the RPGDot Shadows --
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Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:33 am |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
GothicFan speaking:
Q: Will Gothic 3 run on my pc?
A: Offcourse it will. Even when you have to buy a whole new one, but it will run.
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Moderator and Council Magician of the RPGDot Shadows
member of the Sports Fans Forum
Leader's Right Hand at the Gothic Rogues
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Thu Aug 25, 2005 5:45 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Haha that's a pretty easy way of putting it.. just buy a new one, and it WILL run!
Hmm.. using 2h swords to knock people off horses. You know, I never even thought about it, but now that you mention it - it might just be a fairly easy thing to do. I never quite understood why people used 2h swords at all, as you can move twice as fast around with a 1h sword. I figured it was a way of getting through plate armor or some such thing, but there had to be some other use as well. Thanks for the tip Whailor. |
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Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:33 pm |
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Stiler
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 23 Mar 2002
Posts: 230
Location: TN, USA |
Plate armour is something that swords generally are best used to thrust at, in weak points, etc.
There are combat manuals that specifically deal with fighting against armoured foe's with a longsword and such weapons.
There are some swords, like an estoc, that are specifically made to capatlize on the thrusting against plate armor. The blade is dulled on the edges so that you can grasp it and put more force into a thrust.
Nocking someone off a horse with a 2h sword is a bit more challenging then it sounds. For one, you would have to put enough force and momentum into a swing to nock them off, get them out of their stirrups, etc. To do this, the rider/horse would pretty much have to be to your side as you swing, in which case his weapon likely could come damn near close to hitting you aswell.
So a pike or halbred is generally better, becuase of the distance you can use it, and with a halbred you can use the curve to "catch" a rider's leg or such and pull him from his horse, with swords you'd pretty much have to depend on getting enough force into a swing or just thrust into them and hope you get them before they get you. |
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Thu Aug 25, 2005 8:17 pm |
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