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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Dungeon Lords: Review @ Gamers Hell |
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Gamers Hell has posted a caustic <a href="http://www.gamershell.com/pc/dungeon_lords/review.html" target="_blank">review</a> of D.W. Bradley's 'Dungeon Lords'. The score is 4/10 and the intro sets the tone:<blockquote><em>A forum member on Dungeon Lord's official website posted a subject “I have only one suggestion for the game” that when clicked on gave the message “Finish it before shipping it.” So simple, yet so true. Dungeon Lords is probably the least finished game to ever be shipped for PC, excepting Battlecruiser 3000 AD, a title that will probably hold the honour for as long as PC gaming exists. Very few features in Dungeon Lords work, and the few that do, work poorly. It's quite sad, too, because underneath the ancient technology, thousands of bugs, flawed combat system, long load times, pathetic AI, poor performance, dated graphics, promised features that have gone missing, and a complete, total, and savage disregard for PC gamers as a group, there is a fun game in here, simply because it's an RPG designed by someone who loves a good dungeon crawl. I'll give him one thing: D.W. Bradley's games have been consistent. They've been consistently buggy headache machines built on dated tech that possess great character customization and tons of extended dungeon crawling for the dice tossing dragon slayer. Dungeon Lords is no different, it's just got better character customization, more dungeon crawling, and more bugs and missing features than you've ever seen in your life. I'm a huge fan of Bradley's past work, but this is just too much: After this travesty, his reputation is gone.</em></blockquote> |
Fri May 13, 2005 12:18 am |
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Guest
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Dead on. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 12:19 am |
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Guest
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Othe "dead-on" reviews by Gamershell:
Jade Empire=9.1 "Jade Empire is one of the best titles to hit the Xbox since its launch."
Fable=9.1 "It’s been a long time coming and now that it’s here I must say I’m impressed in many ways."
Sudeki= 8.6 "When it’s all said and done, despite my slight bitches, this game is really FUN."
Kotor 2: 9.2 "It is more than a worthy successor to the original game...." |
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Fri May 13, 2005 1:17 am |
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Amparo
Guest
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Guest Number Two.
Do I sense ssarcasm?
Dungeon Lords is far from not finished but it does lack "life" In the first toen, Fargrove, there are about 50 buildings, only 5 or so which you can actually enter. Not sure if this was intentional or if it is really not "finished." |
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Fri May 13, 2005 2:55 am |
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Guest
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same could be said for Jade Empire, Sudiki, and KotOR 2. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 2:58 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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Shit review. Not including patches in the review??? Every single game needs patches and these days 99.9% of users have access to the internet so it shouldn't be seen as a major problem. SW:KOTOR2 was unplayable on my PC does that mean I would it as a 1? No it means I patch it and try to fix and software issues that might cause it to run poorly. Nearly all those "issues" were either performance bugs or bugs fixed in 1.1. I'm sure 1.2 will knock of a few more issues and if not there is always 1.3...I would love to see this guys review of an unpatched fallout 2. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 3:13 am |
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Amelia
City Guard
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 141
Location: Ong's Hat, New Jersey |
The fact that all games requires patches these days is just a reflection of the sad state of affairs that construct the gaming industry these days and days past. It's not a valid excuse. Release a broken mess, review a broken mess.
_________________
The real secret of magick is that the world is made of words. And that if you know the words that the world is made of, you can make of it whatever you wish. -Terence Mckenna |
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Fri May 13, 2005 3:37 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Amelia
The fact that all games requires patches these days is just a reflection of the sad state of affairs that construct the gaming industry these days and days past. It's not a valid excuse. Release a broken mess, review a broken mess.
Did you see their review of KotOR 2? 9.2? Did they review a broken mess? KotOR 1 didn't play for me until afcter the second patch. Well it played, but it crashed all the time. Did kotor get hit for being a console port that failed to utilize the mouse and and mouse related features such as a non-stupid inv menu?
Did fable get hit from these guys for missing all its missing features?
Did Jade Empire get hit for not having any features to cut out? What could it cut? Either the king-fu or the ship fighting mini-game. Without the minigame the game would of taken 8 hours to beat, without the king-fu, the games only real feature (king-fu instead of tradition combat) there wouldn't have been a game. there was no inventory system, no equipment, barely any character customization (if you call different styles of king-fu customization then every rpg that has differnt melee styles such as mace, sword, axe, spear, etc were just as customized. I guys the big heavy guns in UT and the light fast shooting guns are also customization and UT is the king of rpgs), barley anything besides a whole bunch of bladdity blah talking super neat-o kung-fu action.
And what other dw games were loaded with bugs on release? Wiz 7? No. Wiz and Warriors. So DW's legacy of bug riddled games is now up to 2. What a legacy. So 2 out of 4 games are bugged, half DWs games (that I know about, maybe he made wiz 5, but I never plaed it). Is this what the review says?
"They've been consistently buggy headache machines built on dated tech that possess great character customization and tons of extended dungeon crawling for the dice tossing dragon slayer."
Another lie, Wiz 6 was comparable to anything else out, and wiz 7 was way ahead of its time. And neither were buggy headache machines. Wiz 6 was one big dungeon, and wiz 7 had pretty small dungeons and was mostly non-dungeon overland exploration. So again, he's talking about only one other DW title and grouping everything else with. But thats not true either, since wiz and warriors had small dungeons and again was mostly overland exploration. And the term "dice tossing dragon slayer" should never be uttered out loud (or typed where others can see it). |
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Fri May 13, 2005 4:18 am |
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MadPriest
Head Merchant
Joined: 03 Apr 2002
Posts: 57
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quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
quote:
Originally posted by Amelia
The fact that all games requires patches these days is just a reflection of the sad state of affairs that construct the gaming industry these days and days past. It's not a valid excuse. Release a broken mess, review a broken mess.
Did you see their review of KotOR 2? 9.2? Did they review a broken mess? KotOR 1 didn't play for me until afcter the second patch. Well it played, but it crashed all the time. Did kotor get hit for being a console port that failed to utilize the mouse and and mouse related features such as a non-stupid inv menu?
Did fable get hit from these guys for missing all its missing features?
Did Jade Empire get hit for not having any features to cut out? What could it cut? Either the king-fu or the ship fighting mini-game. Without the minigame the game would of taken 8 hours to beat, without the king-fu, the games only real feature (king-fu instead of tradition combat) there wouldn't have been a game. there was no inventory system, no equipment, barely any character customization (if you call different styles of king-fu customization then every rpg that has differnt melee styles such as mace, sword, axe, spear, etc were just as customized. I guys the big heavy guns in UT and the light fast shooting guns are also customization and UT is the king of rpgs), barley anything besides a whole bunch of bladdity blah talking super neat-o kung-fu action.
And what other dw games were loaded with bugs on release? Wiz 7? No. Wiz and Warriors. So DW's legacy of bug riddled games is now up to 2. What a legacy. So 2 out of 4 games are bugged, half DWs games (that I know about, maybe he made wiz 5, but I never plaed it). Is this what the review says?
"They've been consistently buggy headache machines built on dated tech that possess great character customization and tons of extended dungeon crawling for the dice tossing dragon slayer."
Another lie, Wiz 6 was comparable to anything else out, and wiz 7 was way ahead of its time. And neither were buggy headache machines. Wiz 6 was one big dungeon, and wiz 7 had pretty small dungeons and was mostly non-dungeon overland exploration. So again, he's talking about only one other DW title and grouping everything else with. But thats not true either, since wiz and warriors had small dungeons and again was mostly overland exploration. And the term "dice tossing dragon slayer" should never be uttered out loud (or typed where others can see it).
Excellent post, good points, I agree 100% haha
who art thou?? |
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Fri May 13, 2005 5:54 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
quote:
Did Jade Empire get hit for not having any features to cut out? What could it cut? Either the king-fu or the ship fighting mini-game. Without the minigame the game would of taken 8 hours to beat, without the king-fu, the games only real feature (king-fu instead of tradition combat) there wouldn't have been a game. there was no inventory system, no equipment, barely any character customization (if you call different styles of king-fu customization then every rpg that has differnt melee styles such as mace, sword, axe, spear, etc were just as customized. I guys the big heavy guns in UT and the light fast shooting guns are also customization and UT is the king of rpgs), barley anything besides a whole bunch of bladdity blah talking super neat-o kung-fu action.
The old adage of reviewing is that you review the product that you received not the product that you desired. Last time I checked every feature mentioned in the manual and ingame worked in Jade Empire. In order for this comparison to make any real sense you'd need to establish that as with Dungeon Lords there are documented - in the manual and ingame - features missing. But it makes little sense to complain that Jade Empire wasn't docked points for being the game that intended to be; a console action/RPG that emphasized action and story over mechanics. Oh, and I seem to remember ingame music in Jade Empire but that might just be me.
quote:
And what other dw games were loaded with bugs on release? Wiz 7? No. Wiz and Warriors. So DW's legacy of bug riddled games is now up to 2. What a legacy. So 2 out of 4 games are bugged, half DWs games (that I know about, maybe he made wiz 5, but I never plaed it). Is this what the review says?
Wizardry V was solid and bug free and I don't recall Cybermage being too buggy either so it's mostly just Wizards & Warriors that was bug ridden. Though I seem to recall Wizardry Gold was somewhat buggy I don't think that's his fault. So just one overly buggy game.
quote:
Another lie, Wiz 6 was comparable to anything else out, and wiz 7 was way ahead of its time. And neither were buggy headache machines. Wiz 6 was one big dungeon, and wiz 7 had pretty small dungeons and was mostly non-dungeon overland exploration. So again, he's talking about only one other DW title and grouping everything else with. But thats not true either, since wiz and warriors had small dungeons and again was mostly overland exploration. And the term "dice tossing dragon slayer" should never be uttered out loud (or typed where others can see it).
Actually the 'non-dungeon overland' was really just a dungeon with an outdoor motif. The outdoor sections were just as maze like as a dungeon and played like them. Wizardry VII was really a dungeon crawler that broke out of the underground. The tech for the game was pretty dated when it came out though. Around the same time there were games like Ultima Underworld and Ultima VII which were technically far advanced. Besides, Wizardry VII had towns with random encounters and no populace.  Still, an amazing game with some very cool ideas even if some weren't executed so well.
The thing that hurts Dungeon Lords isn't that it lacks some feature that someone thinks all RPGs should have. Nay, it's that it lacks features that its own ingame help screen says it has. That the game obviously is missing content doesn't help any. All of this hasn't made me cancel my order or anything but I can't help but feel that each time this happens it hurts the entire genre. There have been many buggy RPGs - Ultima VII, Daggerfall, Darklands - but few lacking basic content like furniture and music.
That I like the developer and the concept and even the game doesn't make it better; only worse. Seeing something you like get dumped out so obviously incomplete really sucks.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==-
Last edited by Priest4hire on Fri May 13, 2005 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fri May 13, 2005 7:14 am |
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Guest
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Well, sadly enough this game is hyped and then fails miserably at even living up to that hype.
Some people would ofcourse defend this game as the game has potential, but realisticly which RPG doesn't have potential to become an even better game?
No patch of fix will make the game any better, but it will certainly irritate people and as such it will not be rare to see more rantings from reviewers and gamers alike. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 9:43 am |
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Amparo
Guest
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Actually, all games do not need patches. It is possible to test a game before releasing it. Correct me if I am wrong but The Sims is a good example. Since its release, they have added a million features but it was a 100% working game when it shipped. I am thinking off the top of my head but the Myst series comes to mind too. Age of Mythology had a patch to balance civilizations but the game was not broken. Rise of Nations too. Again, just off the top of my head. I have to agree, reviews should be without patches as a kind of revenge to devlopers who think it is ok to release unfinished, untested products. Bad reviews lead to lower sales. Serves them right. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 10:08 am |
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Lysiander
Village Dweller
Joined: 28 Apr 2005
Posts: 4
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I kind of agree with Amparo. I recall times when finding a bug in a game was a rarity. Granted, that was a long time ago and games have exponentially grown in size since then, but still there is a difference between bugs and unplayability.
Most games these days are released with bugs. Everyone knows it and we have come to accept it. Hell, stability, something that should be granted in a sold product, has become a plus point in ratings. But the recent trend of releasing games with unfinished and/or cut content is simply bothering. Companies are advertising and promising their asses off and what people get is usually the half of it at best.
Now, I havent seen a finished version (or unfinished, the sold one) yet, but if it is anywhere *near* what people claim it to be, it'd walk right back into the store. I have been waiting for a long time, especially the co-op multiplayer modus, to play with my friends. After reading this review and the comments here, I wonder if I shouldn't just keep waiting. |
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Fri May 13, 2005 10:36 am |
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Priest4hire
Head Merchant
Joined: 08 May 2002
Posts: 52
Location: Slocan, BC |
In all fairness the most ambitious games do tend to be the buggiest if just because the larger and more complex a game is the harder it is to iron everything out. And one should be careful not to fall into the trap of the false dichotomy. Games are not split into bug free/buggy but instead there a a graduation from more or less bug free* to fairly buggy to heavily bugged and then to incomplete. Incomplete is something different than buggy since the former deals with flaws in a game's programming and content while the latter is a lack of one or the other.
I believe that, within limits, the ambition of a game should be weighed against the condition at shipping. But biting off more than you can chew is not that admirable a trait. Sometimes it is better to do less but do what you do very well than to try and do everything and be compromised. This is also a good example of why using a pre-fab engine might not be a bad idea for smaller devs. Time not spent dealing with the guts can be spent dealing with content.
*These days it's probably near impossible to be 100% bug free.
_________________
Watch your back. Shoot straight. Conserve ammo. And never, ever, cut a deal with a dragon.
Grammaton Dragon
-==(UDIC)==- |
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Fri May 13, 2005 11:39 am |
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roqua1
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Priest4hire
quote:
Did Jade Empire get hit for not having any features to cut out? What could it cut? Either the king-fu or the ship fighting mini-game. Without the minigame the game would of taken 8 hours to beat, without the king-fu, the games only real feature (king-fu instead of tradition combat) there wouldn't have been a game. there was no inventory system, no equipment, barely any character customization (if you call different styles of king-fu customization then every rpg that has differnt melee styles such as mace, sword, axe, spear, etc were just as customized. I guys the big heavy guns in UT and the light fast shooting guns are also customization and UT is the king of rpgs), barley anything besides a whole bunch of bladdity blah talking super neat-o kung-fu action.
The old adage of reviewing is that you review the product that you received not the product that you desired. Last time I checked every feature mentioned in the manual and ingame worked in Jade Empire. In order for this comparison to make any real sense you'd need to establish that as with Dungeon Lords there are documented - in the manual and ingame - features missing. But it makes little sense to complain that Jade Empire wasn't docked points for being the game that intended to be; a console action/RPG that emphasized action and story over mechanics. Oh, and I seem to remember ingame music in Jade Empire but that might just be me.
quote:
And what other dw games were loaded with bugs on release? Wiz 7? No. Wiz and Warriors. So DW's legacy of bug riddled games is now up to 2. What a legacy. So 2 out of 4 games are bugged, half DWs games (that I know about, maybe he made wiz 5, but I never plaed it). Is this what the review says?
Wizardry V was solid and bug free and I don't recall Cybermage being too buggy either so it's mostly just Wizards & Warriors that was bug ridden. Though I seem to recall Wizardry Gold was somewhat buggy I don't think that's his fault. So just one overly buggy game.
quote:
Another lie, Wiz 6 was comparable to anything else out, and wiz 7 was way ahead of its time. And neither were buggy headache machines. Wiz 6 was one big dungeon, and wiz 7 had pretty small dungeons and was mostly non-dungeon overland exploration. So again, he's talking about only one other DW title and grouping everything else with. But thats not true either, since wiz and warriors had small dungeons and again was mostly overland exploration. And the term "dice tossing dragon slayer" should never be uttered out loud (or typed where others can see it).
Actually the 'non-dungeon overland' was really just a dungeon with an outdoor motif. The outdoor sections were just as maze like as a dungeon and played like them. Wizardry VII was really a dungeon crawler that broke out of the underground. The tech for the game was pretty dated when it came out though. Around the same time there were games like Ultima Underworld and Ultima VII which were technically far advanced. Besides, Wizardry VII had towns with random encounters and no populace. Still, an amazing game with some very cool ideas even if some weren't executed so well.
The thing that hurts Dungeon Lords isn't that it lacks some feature that someone thinks all RPGs should have. Nay, it's that it lacks features that its own ingame help screen says it has. That the game obviously is missing content doesn't help any. All of this hasn't made me cancel my order or anything but I can't help but feel that each time this happens it hurts the entire genre. There have been many buggy RPGs - Ultima VII, Daggerfall, Darklands - but few lacking basic content like furniture and music.
That I like the developer and the concept and even the game doesn't make it better; only worse. Seeing something you like get dumped out so obviously incomplete really sucks.
I agree with your statement that wiz 7 was an outside dungeon crawl, expect for obvious reasons, but I get your point. But in fairness, the same can be said for almost any game besides a couple such as ToEE and BG wich had outside areas that were vastly different and unmaze like.
I never heard of cybermages, is it good? When was it released?
The problem with reviewers reviewing the game in its release state is that they don't hold it against some games, but hold it against others. Skewing the balance towards the big name devs and hurting the smaller ones since its a lot safer to go with the crowd and support the huge bioware, blizzard fanbase, and tear up HP since its fanbase is non-existant.
I really don't remember U7 being buggy, but I also wasn't a big fan. I played and liked 4-6, but 7 was vastly different. I do remember I spent more time getting 7 to play than I did playing it. My biggest problem was its combat, it wasn't my idea of good combat. I don't remember darklands being buggy either, and I still play it often. Daggerfall was the first game I ever patched, and i do remember it being buggy.
But I disagree heartily that wiz 7 was outdated. It had never before seen features, such as automap tied to a skill. Skills that open-up through game events (like markmanship through the umpani's), NPCs classes that remembered events and reacted to them, and a million other never before seen features that made it light years ahead of its time.
My biggest problem in general is the way people react towards games. Yes, Jade Empire had all the promised features, but it didn't have any features. Every game has ingame music, thats not a feature. Whats DS features? They're all tech features and certainly not rpg features. A game that has more to it, and especially what people classify as an rpg, should get credit for the more rpg features it has. How customizable is the character, is there a character creation, is there a lot of equipment features, etc, ect. but thats nopt how it works.
DW could have made a bioware clone, and it wouldn't have been buggy since there would have been a linear story, crappy and choice-light character progression, and other big selling game staples. He could have chose to do the same old same old. He walked off the beaten path and got the crap kicked out of him for it. No one cares that featureless games with inherently be less buggy. the deeper, more complex games with more variables, creative design, and other things that really should be valued in a sane world add variability and bugs.
The way i see it if a guy and a couple of his friends built a house, and they poored their heart into it, and instead of going for the regular bland design desided to really go all out and add a mosiac floor, detailed woodcrafting, all the extras that give a house personality. And maybe they overreached themselves and had to pull back and remove things they planned for, but the end result is a house with more personality than anything the big house devopers churn out. Maybe you don't like the house the made, but if the choices are between the same, but slightly different houses a big house devloper/builder makes with a heartless team and corporate mindset, and the one the guy made, I know which i'd choose.
And even if I didn't like the house he made, I'm not going to take a crap on what he did. This guy poored his heart, soul, and creative energy into building something different and unique. Maybe its not 100% rock solid. Maybe it didn't work out as he planned. Maybe its not the dream house he invisioned. But this is a house made out of blood, sweat, and tears and everything is infused with TLC. And taking a crap on something someone worked their ass off on is wrong. Even if you like the plain, bland houses from the big guys, i know your momma's taught you how to show some respect and not tear apart someone elses hard work like a heartless sociopath.
Where are the reviews or responses that tip their hat in respect at someone showing ingenuity and creativity. HP could of made a clone game with no variables, no features, no bugs, and no heart. But they didn't. Two roads diverged in the woods and they took the one less travelled. And the corporate gaming giants get their knobs slobbed on. Who holds the gainst, churning out the same old featurless, but rock-solid, juvinille sophmore crap upto a critical light? The big guys get a free ride for catering to the almighty dollar, and the little guy gets beat up and attacked for not doing what the money-grubbing, bottom-lined focused, corporations are doing.
Its not right and it doesn't sit well with me, and shouldn't sit well with anyone that values hard work, creativity, and respect for your fellow man who is driven by passion and makes decisions with love instead of the bottom-line in mind. If you don't like the house he built, voice why without being a hostile, rude, and heartless (p.s. I'm not signling or saying priest4hire is like that, I'm talking in genral terms about the rpg/gaming community, priest4hire didn't seem like the type of person i described at all). |
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Fri May 13, 2005 4:38 pm |
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