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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Maylander
Let's not turn this into a Gothic discussion, but I just have to make a short reply:
- The controls in Gothic are great once you get used to them, as you have much greater control over your moves - you can control each swing personally, sideways, forward, left, right, make your own combos etc. Unlike most games there is actually a decent amount of skill involved, and the best Gothic players can take down trolls and orc elites at level 1 with a stick, due to pure skill(it takes 5-10 minuttes though, as they are so incredibly more powerful than you at that point).
This settles the arguement of Gothic being an rpg or not.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:44 am |
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Seven from the Codex
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dajjer
Touchy aren't we? Did you write the article. hahahahahaahaha
My post said nothing about the Beth hype machine and I certainly made no illusions to whether or not I was excusing their excesses.
Thanks for playing.
And what does that mean exactly? I was simply pointing out that the inverse of what you said is also true, except it is rarely commented upon by you or by others. It seems that rather than address the real issue at hand you’ve chosen to state the obvious followed by a condescending “thanks for playing.” I wasn’t aware that we were playing at anything; I had hoped that you might respond as to why you would point out the obvious negative bias in this case while ignoring other more imbalanced positive biases from innumerable other gaming reviews of Oblivion.
It seemed like a valid question given the context of your statement. And yes, of course your post said nothing of the Beth hype machine neither did mine, and I do not know why you would mention it? I’ll reiterate what I was originally suggesting: basically, my contention with you revolves around your choice to critique the biases of this review while ignoring the biases of other reviews. So yes, by making a public statement against the biases of this review while not making public statements against the biases of other more positive (and I would argue more imbalanced) reviews I believe that you are tacitly excusing the excesses of other reviewers. |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:28 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I enjoyed the idea of using developer qotes; it was creative and original. I would have loved to see that device used on Dungeon Lords!!!! 
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:38 am |
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Dajjer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles area |
quote:
Originally posted by Seven from the Codex
quote:
Originally posted by Dajjer
Touchy aren't we? Did you write the article. hahahahahaahaha
My post said nothing about the Beth hype machine and I certainly made no illusions to whether or not I was excusing their excesses.
Thanks for playing.
And what does that mean exactly? I was simply pointing out that the inverse of what you said is also true, except it is rarely commented upon by you or by others. It seems that rather than address the real issue at hand you’ve chosen to state the obvious followed by a condescending “thanks for playing.” I wasn’t aware that we were playing at anything; I had hoped that you might respond as to why you would point out the obvious negative bias in this case while ignoring other more imbalanced positive biases from innumerable other gaming reviews of Oblivion.
It seemed like a valid question given the context of your statement. And yes, of course your post said nothing of the Beth hype machine neither did mine, and I do not know why you would mention it? I’ll reiterate what I was originally suggesting: basically, my contention with you revolves around your choice to critique the biases of this review while ignoring the biases of other reviews. So yes, by making a public statement against the biases of this review while not making public statements against the biases of other more positive (and I would argue more imbalanced) reviews I believe that you are tacitly excusing the excesses of other reviewers.
I have neither the time nor the desire to re read your opus and pick out all the biases in that review. I said it was there because that is how I read the article. If you want to disagree with me . . . fine.
BTW, the second paragraph in your response is a hoot. I have no responsibility to address the biases of other Oblivion reviews. My commentary was directed only at the article that I read at the Codex. To imply my response must fill some social need to balance those big review scales in the sky is some nonsense you created in your own mind. |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:08 am |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
I enjoyed the idea of using developer qotes; it was creative and original.
I disagree.
Those quotes have been totally ripped out of the context where they were originally posted. In fairness to Bethesda, each quote at least should have been accompanied by a link to the original post/article.
However, even then it would still seem extremely questionable whether it is fair or intelligent to use developer quotes in a review.
Bethesda themselves (like any developer who is giving pre-release interviews) frequently pointed out that things are "in development", "subject to change", "not nailed down", whatever.
It's pretty cheap (and not creative or original) IMHO to base the entire "review" around dev quotes that were made who-knows-when and in who-knows-what-context.
RPG Codex should have named this biased rant 'Why Oblivi0n is teh suck and we told u so!!111' and posted it under their op ed category where it belongs.
Well, or to their forums where they have been holding the unofficial 'Let's see who can get the most LOLs from others for bashing Oblivion' contest since the game's release.
Going by the comments over there and here, it looks like the "reviewer" won. Congrats  . |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:59 pm |
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VDweller
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
Those quotes have been totally ripped out of the context where they were originally posted.
...
Bethesda themselves (like any developer who is giving pre-release interviews) frequently pointed out that things are "in development", "subject to change", "not nailed down", whatever.
So, which one? Out of context or early promises that shouldn't be taken seriously? Make up your mind.
Now, in regard to the "out of context" claim, what seems to be out of context? Which unfair quote would suddenly turn into a fulfilled promise if it was surrounded by loads of meaningful context?
In regard to the "early promises" stuff, in case you didn't notice, there are no quotes that could fall under such category. Every early promise that has been made and then taken back, like levitation, for example (one of the developers was stating how awesome levitation is now), isn't featured in the review. Every promise that has been made and maintained til the release day, like the becoming the top guy in a faction stuff is there and for a good reason.
However, the review isn't focused on those quotes, like you claim. The review follows the standard, at least for me, chapter format, describing each element in the game, regardless of what the developers claimed. Take the Magic "chapter" for example. I did include Todd's quote, but stated that all changes are positive. So, what are you complaining about?
quote:
It's pretty cheap (and not creative or original) IMHO to base the entire "review" around dev quotes that were made who-knows-when and in who-knows-what-context.
It's pretty cheap to make shit up just to accuse a person you disagree with of something.
quote:
RPG Codex should have named this biased rant 'Why Oblivi0n is teh suck and we told u so!!111' and posted it under their op ed category where it belongs.
Biased rant? Cute |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 4:42 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
Those quotes have been totally ripped out of the context where they were originally posted.
...
Bethesda themselves (like any developer who is giving pre-release interviews) frequently pointed out that things are "in development", "subject to change", "not nailed down", whatever.
So, which one? Out of context or early promises that shouldn't be taken seriously? Make up your mind.
I don't get it. Where's the logical 'or' relationship here?
What I meant is that it seems unfair to rip the quotes out of the original context and to not include links to the source material.
There's no reason not to trust you, of course, but for all we know, you might theoretically have made up every single quote.
Also, since there are no links to the sources... when were the quotes originally published? Some of the quotes you used could be pre-Arena, pre-Daggerfall, pre-Morrowind etc.
Some of the quotes could also have been posted in a totally different context. Maybe the interview question was... 'What would [fill in the blank] be like in an ideal RPG?' or 'If you had no budget and schedule limitations for Oblivion then what would [fill in the blank again] be like?'
How do we know that some of these quotes are even related to Oblivion?
I think it would be reasonably easy to tear any game to pieces with the method you applied. Grab some random dev quotes from who-knows-when and who-cares-what-context and then you just bash the developers for not living up to their "promises"... or so called "promises" that might not even be related to the game at hand.
Just like Bill Gates is still subject to ridicule when people bring up the infamous "You'll never need more than 640KB of memory" quote (which he claims he never said BTW).
You are subjecting Bethesda to ridicule by bringing up stuff they supposedly once said (though only you know when or why or in what context).
That's not fair in my opinion. Things are changing constantly or as a wise little green guy once said 'Always in motion the future is'  . Just doesn't seem fair to me to call someone out on what they said (possibly) months ago.
quote:
Now, in regard to the "out of context" claim, what seems to be out of context? Which unfair quote would suddenly turn into a fulfilled promise if it was surrounded by loads of meaningful context?
As I said above, it's not even clear if they are talking about Oblivion at times. The context could be 'What would an ideal RPG be like?' or 'What would Bethesda do if they had no budget or schedule limitations?' or the quoted dev could have been day-dreaming or whatever.
Unfortunately, there's no way to tell since you conveniently(?) forgot to include links so no one can check for themselves what context these quotes were made in.
quote:
However, the review isn't focused on those quotes, like you claim. The review follows the standard, at least for me, chapter format, describing each element in the game, regardless of what the developers claimed. Take the Magic "chapter" for example. I did include Todd's quote, but stated that all changes are positive. So, what are you complaining about?
quote:
It's pretty cheap (and not creative or original) IMHO to base the entire "review" around dev quotes that were made who-knows-when and in who-knows-what-context.
It's pretty cheap to make shit up just to accuse a person you disagree with of something.
Well, every paragraph is starting with a reference to the quote and then pretty much revolving around the quote's topic. Not sure how I'm making up shit *shrug*.
quote:
RPG Codex should have named this biased rant 'Why Oblivi0n is teh suck and we told u so!!111' and posted it under their op ed category where it belongs.
quote:
Biased rant? Cute
Yes, cute and accurate . To me, it seems more or less like a direct continuation of the (often times childish IMHO) Oblivion bashing that's going on at your forums where people seem to be in a permanent competition over who can post the most ridiculous screenshot (a trend that you have clearly followed in your review) or who can manage to report about the most shocking RAI flaw.
Can't blame you though. It's the community you're catering to so that's fine.
I just personally believe that this article doesn't really deserve the 'review' tag but should instead have been posted as an op ed titled 'How Oblivion fails to live up to the hype [or promises]' (or something along those lines). |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:35 pm |
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Superguest
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Guest
As for Gothic 3. If it has the same crap controls and shitty UI as the first 2 then I'll pass on it. I laugh when people say the OB UI is bad when the Gothic series has far worse and I've never seen anybody complain about that.
Besides the fact that they didn't even have the same controls or UI in the first place, I can both see more items on screen at once and scroll through categories and items faster in Gothic's inventory than in Oblivion's. All character stats are visible at once glance. That's better in my book.
Gothic's interface was extremely unintrusive and practical, especially in regard to interaction with objects in the gameworld. Unlike Oblivion and Gothic 2 with its stupid one-click interaction I never experienced trouble selecting a particular item obscured (not necessarily visually) by othersm since I could literally scroll through objects infront of my character while holding the action key.
Of course, your whole post is pointless anyway since we already know that Gothic 3 will use different controls.
quote:
Then again nobody can say it was 'dumbed down' for consoles. Heh.
Actually, I believe Gothic was originally planned as console title, and that's why there is no mouse support. Damn consoles!  |
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Tue Apr 25, 2006 11:30 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dajjer
I have neither the time nor the desire to re read your opus and pick out all the biases in that review. I said it was there because that is how I read the article. If you want to disagree with me . . . fine.
BTW, the second paragraph in your response is a hoot. I have no responsibility to address the biases of other Oblivion reviews. My commentary was directed only at the article that I read at the Codex. To imply my response must fill some social need to balance those big review scales in the sky is some nonsense you created in your own mind.
First off, I didn't write the review and I’m not on staff at the Codex; I don't know what the reading comprehension standards are to be a staffer at RPG Dot, but you'll notice that my handle is Seven from the Codex and not Vault Dweller. Oddly enough, all of your responses seem to suggest that you’re either being evasive or simply don’t comprehend what’s being said or asked.
And in case you have not noticed I do not deny that the review lacks bias, what I do suggest and what is very much true is that you have never commented on the biases of other Oblivion reviews—it’s a fair statement considering that it is the truth. I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said regarding the review, but I do take issue with you targeting this review for critique when there are others that are far more imbalanced. Frankly, I don’t care about the “social need to balance those big review scales in the sky,” my question from the beginning has simply been to figure why when there are so many more biased reviews did you choose to target this one with a critique of bias. I don’t know how to be more straightforward, and if you’re simply going to come back with gimpy one or two liners thanking me for playing, commenting about the phantasmal Beth hype machine or other wavy witticisms that have nothing to do with the question that I'm asking, then you might as well not answer as I grow tired continually having to re-explain what should be a relatively simple thing. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:00 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
...I don't know what the reading comprehension standards are to be a staffer at RPG Dot...
What the hell do RPGDot staffers have to do with anything, Seven? Stick to your argument rather than targeting the site for no reason. That's what the Codex proclaims, right? They debate the issue rather than the man? Do it.
_________________
Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:19 am |
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Kalia
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
Posts: 30
Location: Arizona |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
...I don't know what the reading comprehension standards are to be a staffer at RPG Dot...
What the hell do RPGDot staffers have to do with anything, Seven? Stick to your argument rather than targeting the site for no reason. That's what the Codex proclaims, right? They debate the issue rather than the man? Do it.
Funny, I wondered the same thing. That type of insult automatically reduces credibility by 50%. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:34 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Yet if you keep harping just about Seven's dumbassed comment about RPGdot, then you're guilty of the same thing - playing the man, not the argument.
His point is simple: People here are hollering 'bias' about a review that is negative, yet the other 'reviews' which have proclaimed this to be the 'greatest RPG ever', and 'the perfect game', are not met with the same accusation?
Moriendor: Two things about the quotes. Firstly, they are all genuine quotes from Bethesda developers. They were all made in interviews, at various stages during the game's development (Todd Howard's comment about 'riding around on horses killing stuff' is the oldest one. The others are from the past months).
Secondly, and more importantly: You feel that it is unfair to call developers to task on quotes they make well before the game is finished. Well, in this case, it is completely fair.
Because this is Bethesda we're talking about. Not just any developer, but a company with a proven track record of deliberately misleading hype (Fargoth's Gold, the Bookseller), self-important bloviating, and an incredibly arrogant attitude towards fans of the series and toward the game-world it inherited from the people who did all the original work (Bethesda under Peterson/LeFay).
Would you equally say it is unfair to call Lionhead and Molyneux out for the promises made about Fable before it's release? Of course not, it sold a truckload off the back of the hype they deliberately generated.
So stop being such a bleeding heart. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 6:48 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
Yet if you keep harping just about Seven's dumbassed comment about RPGdot, then you're guilty of the same thing - playing the man, not the argument.
Huh? So Seven comes along and makes a comment with obvious implications about RPGDot staffers reading comprehension when he isn't even debating with any RPGDot staff and asking him what the hell he is talking about is "harping" or playing the man instead of the argument?
What a crock.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:11 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Oh come off it, Dhruin - yes, his comment was dumbassed. Seven is known for dumbassed comments generally. But the relevant point being made was about the complete double standards of people posting here - 'Oblivion is the perfect game, 10/10' from commercial sites get nary a complaint, yet the Codex review gets a knee-jerk 'You're all biased!!!'??
Instead of zoning in and talking exclusively about Seven's dumbassed jibe, how about addressing this, a most glaring truth, instead? |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 8:48 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Because "people" aren't the same thing as RPGDot staff.
As for "addressing this, a most glaring truth", have a read through the rest of the thread for my comments.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:12 am |
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