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| Do you accept same-sex marriage? |
| Anti - homosexual; sinful, unmoral & unnatural |
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27% |
[ 16 ] |
| ambivalent - undecided, unsure, mixed feelings |
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5% |
[ 3 ] |
| laissez-faire - noninterventionist, tolerant |
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27% |
[ 16 ] |
| Pro - deeply believe in freedom & equality |
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39% |
[ 23 ] |
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| Total Votes : 58 |
Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
err i meant to say that the things we take with us after death are memories, the conscious self-identity, and emotions. It is the impenetrable *I* of the Hindu third eye. |
Mon Feb 16, 2004 10:35 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
If you think the US democrats are socialists, you must think that the british labour party is a stalinist party *g* (and we europeans think of them as a centrist party, really).
And that's being charitable 
quote:
Originally posted by Ammon777
Id rather it be a "legally binding contract" than to call it "marriage," because unless they do that, then "marriage" has been redefined inaccurately. Marriage has traditional roots...
Which are what? As I pointed out before, the current, widely accepted Christian interpretation of marriage is not the same as what it previously meant, so it has already been redefined... so you are simultaneously condoning and objecting to the same thing.
As for the whole existence of God/gods and eternal life thing, it's way off-topic and impossible to prove anyway (we have our beliefs and that's all we have to go on until we kick the bucket), so it's probably best not to go on and on and on about it in this thread. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 2:07 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
Well, we haven't had a thread like this in a long time! 
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
I firmly believe in the sanctity of marriage
I thought about this one, but it's probably beyond my scope. What do you mean with 'sanctity' in the context of marriage.
For me it's of dual-meaning. Firstly, I feel that the concept of "marriage" by traditional definition has existed for thousands of years, and has gathered a lot of emotional meaning for many people - I don't think it's right for anyone to redefine something that so many people have such strong feelings about. I don't dispute that the same feelings can be felt between two people of the same sex, but sorry guys, that word's taken. So in this case "sanctity" means sacredness or inviolability.
Secondly, I've been brought up with knowledge of and respect for Christian (Church of England) beliefs, and the word "marriage" has special meaning there. My own opinions on religion are rather in a state of flux, but I do subscribe to the belief that there is more to marriage than a piece of paper and a joint mortgage - there's definitely a spiritual component, although I can't put my finger on exactly what it is at this point in my life. So I mean "sanctity" as is holiness as well.
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
Others have said what I would, thanks Charlie
What? Corwin and I agree on something that to him would be a serious matter of religious belief? Maybe it's time to seriously re-evaluate my opinions! 
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
But why does that make my exisitence meaningless? Can there be only meaning to life if there is an afterlife?
I think this deserves repeating again - nicely said Myrthos!
Exercise for the reader: if there is no God and no afterlife for you, then there is no afterlife for anyone else either. Does this mean that no one's life has any meaning, or does meaning actually derive from actions rather than just existence?
Ammon777, your beliefs make for some interesting reading! I'm no theologian, but I don't know of any religion that would agree with you on all points. To that end, have you considered writing it all down and trying to get published? I don't suggest going the cult route, but at least get your view of reality out there so other people can consider it.
_________________
Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:23 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
Firstly, I feel that the concept of "marriage" by traditional definition has existed for thousands of years, and has gathered a lot of emotional meaning for many people
I fully agree on that part.
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
I don't think it's right for anyone to redefine something that so many people have such strong feelings about. I don't dispute that the same feelings can be felt between two people of the same sex, but sorry guys, that word's taken. So in this case "sanctity" means sacredness or inviolability.
But for that same first reason you mentioned I would say: "I don't think it's right for anyone to deny that something that so many people have such strong feelings about."
If it was just a word then there would be no real issue. There are other words that can fill the void. But all those other words are not the same. They lack the emotional aspect that comes with the word 'marriage'.
I guess one of the differences in our views is that I do not have all the emotional attachements to the word as you have, which makes it for me more of a non-issue.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
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Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:52 pm |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
Ammon777, your beliefs make for some interesting reading! I'm no theologian, but I don't know of any religion that would agree with you on all points. To that end, have you considered writing it all down and trying to get published? I don't suggest going the cult route, but at least get your view of reality out there so other people can consider it.
Well thanks. Ive been thinking about doing something like that. But the problem i can see with it is that im schizophrenic and that might make people think that im entirely delusional about everything. Schizophrenia a hard stigma to live with. Either people think youre a freak, or they think youre too out of touch with reality to be believable...
Anyway, marriage has always been about a male and female. I dont where that person got the info, but same sex marriages didnt even happen in ancient Roman times when homosexuality was a common occurrence among adult males and young boys. If a woman did that, she would be disowned, but Roman male citizens could do anything they pleased. I dont know about any example in the past wherein gay marriages was not a redefinition upon an age-old traditionary concept rooted in patriarchism. Wild African tribes dont even have gay marriages. And animals are animals, they dont know any better. Most animals will smell your butt just to say hello. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:38 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by cfmdobbie
Well, we haven't had a thread like this in a long time!
And I was so happy.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:05 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Ammon,
For the reasons you stated you should be for gay marraige. Believing in an afterlife and believing your actions in life have consequences means to me that life is a test. You make the right decisions and you pass, make the wrong ones and you fail. By limiting peoples actions or choices you limit their ability to make right or wrong decisions and therefore limit the test of life. If you force choices onto people without letting them make the choices for themselves, what kind of a test is that?
Everyone else that believes there is no afterlife:
Have you ever got so drunk that you don't remember anything the next day? If when you die there is just death and nothing else all life would be like that but without being able to hear about what you did when you sober up.
I wish I could believe the that at death there is only nothing because that would make life infinitly easier to live. What I do in life wouldn't matter. When I died wouldn't matter. Honor wouldn't matter. Just the moment. If I saw a pretty girl I wanted I could punch her in the head and rape her, and if the cops came I would go out in a blaze of glory. And I would end up in the same place of Mother Teresa, no where with no memeries. Guilt, right, and morality would mean nothing. Murder puts people exactly where they will be in a couple decades anyway. The same place Hitler and Gandi amd MLK are. The same place everyone goes to no matter how the lived, saint or crazed rapist killer. How could you look at a mother that kills her newborn as sick when the newborn will eventually had the same fate? Nothing at all.
Their can be meaning in life with no afterlife, but it boils down to getting so drunk you remember nothing, having a good time while you do it, and never sobering up to find out what you did.
My father believes the same as you guys do, and we used to argue all the time but have given up. I have to believe that there is a reason to do good or else why do it? For goodness sake? Thats insane, there is so much more pleasure and excitment in being bad. Mother Teresa lived in hell and squaller, Hitler really lived. Serial Killers had a lot of excitment whith the kill, and rapists get what the want when the want it the only way the could.
What we look at as the ultimate punishment for criminals, exicution, would just be a release. ANd that criminal is going to the same release we will get after our boring lives of going to work everyday and mainly obeying the laws. I better punishment would be torture, prolonged torture, and making sure the criminal lives as long as possible.
I refuse to believe Hitler and Mother Teresa had the same end. And if it is true, and our actions mean nothing, I would much rather be Hitler.
And if you look down on me for this, remember it doesn't matter. I'd just be wormfood with no momories, at least I would ahve secured a place in history and had fun and lived an exciting life doing it.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:10 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
"That person?" ... I guess that means me  . When I said that the Christian interpretation of marriage is itself a change from a previous definition, I wasn't implying that same-sex marriages existed previously - I don't know whether they did or not, and I suspect nobody here does. The previous definition I was referring to was marriage as a business arrangement.
My point is that the word has already been redefined at least once, and the current widely accepted meaning (that of spiritual union between man and woman) is not the original one... so the notion that its meaning is set in stone and should never be changed doesn't really hold water. Moreover, I don't think it's right to prohibit others from using a word which (as Myrthos said) also has great significance to them just because their interpretation of it is different to yours. Like I said before, whether or not a same-sex couple should be allowed a Christian marriage is another question; but to expect people outside of your faith or culture to abide by the conventions of that faith or culture is unrealistic, I think. |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:26 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
But for that same first reason you mentioned I would say: "I don't think it's right for anyone to deny that something that so many people have such strong feelings about."
You're absolutely right, of course. And yes, if there were no emotional attachment to the word, this would be a complete non-issue.
Keeping one group happy by leaving a word alone and keeping another happy by altering its definition are mutually exclusive - on this point I choose to stay with the current definition. Is this because because I side with the majority, or because I support a more traditionalist view, or do I prefer not to confuse a well-defined concept, or maybe I feel that the gay/lesbian community is more open to compromise? Probably a little of each.
You would prefer the other situation - because you're more forward-thinking, you think people are more able to adapt than I do, you think the gay/lesbian community should not be required to compromise if they really want to use the word "marriage", because you don't see the current definition as being any more "correct" than the alternative, or for whatever reason. Both viewpoints have their merits, I think.
_________________
Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Moderator of the Morrowind/Oblivion Forums= |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 6:31 pm |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
quote:
Originally posted by Myrthos
It all comes down to what you belief to be true. Truth is not a universal concept. You have your truth and I have mine. Mine says that there was nothing before and there is nothing after my life. I only have this time. So if I have to make anything of it I have to do it now. There are no second chances.
But that's not what this thread was about....
Truth is not relative.
If I am a robotics engineer and a I create a robot that speaks and thinks...and said robot hides behind a chair and proclaims boldly...
I DO NOT BELIEVE IN YOU...YOU DO NOT EXIST
It does not change the Truth, the fact that I did create you, and no matter what you choose to do or say...you are my creation
_________________
Between the years when the oceans drank Atlantis and the gleaming cities…there was an Age undreamed of, when shining kingdoms lay spread across the world like blue mantles beneath the stars…Hither came Conan, the Cimmerian, black-haired, sullen-eyed, sword in hand…to tread the jeweled thrones of the Earth under his sandaled feet. - Robert E. Howard |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:08 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I enjoyed that robot anecdote, it was cool. Is it a true story? 
I see your point (although the ghost of Philip K. Dick may disagree), but it doesn't apply in the case of right and wrong. Maybe some here are considering the same-sex marriage issue purely in terms of practicality, but I think most of us are expressing our own morality through our views on the issue. But the only right and wrong is what we decide for ourselves (or what our governments or religions attempt to decide for us), and the specifics change from one person (or time, or place) to the next. There's no "true" right and wrong... maybe that's what Myrthos had in mind, maybe not... |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:26 pm |
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Elverath
Village Leader
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: USA |
if the only thing keeping you from going out and murdering a dozen innocent people is your religion and fear of persecution, you have some serious problems to work out. and that goes for ALOT of people. Like I said, I dont need a book to tell me lying is wrong. same goes for murder. I dont think there's a god or an afterlife, but im not killing anybody. Not because of fear of the law either, because I know its wrong.
I guess I should clear up that I do think im agnostic. I dont believe in god but I dont support the theory of evolution either. I simply DONT KNOW AND DONT PRETEND TO KNOW! ill find out when im dead! |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:00 pm |
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Elverath
Village Leader
Joined: 30 Jan 2004
Posts: 80
Location: USA |
Oh and I wanted to ask: Why do gay people want to get married anyways? have they read the divorce statistics lately? |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:03 pm |
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Secret Agent Lawanda
The last thing you see...
Joined: 23 Oct 2003
Posts: 1041
Location: World of Darkness (LA) |
As to the actual topic of this thread: I think I'd agree more with cfmdobbie's outlook.
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-=Professional Secret Agent=-
Moderator of The Anime and Manga Fan Club |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:04 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Oh and I wanted to ask: Why do gay people want to get married anyways? have they read the divorce statistics lately?
Because some are religious? Even though their own religion SUPPOSEDLY condemns it...
As for TRUTH, I think everything happens in one way. Also, IMO, TRUTH and BELIEF are different. When you talk about truth, you talk about what you BELIEVE is the truth.
I still don't see any reason as to why the evolvement of language should be hindered by short-sightedness. Are the words what really matters in religion, or is it the concept? Funny thing is that it's probably different for different people in one religion. Why not just branch the word to 'homo-marriage', then short it to 'homage'? 
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Mon Feb 16, 2004 9:43 pm |
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