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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Well I like the game a lot.
But the first thing I do not like at all, and its going to be a long tooth ache, is what you just alluded to.
You have to click 100 times to do everything.
I find I save after I manage to heal everyone. The amount of clicking and hunting to cast spells on all my characters is intensive.
The looting of corpses also takes longer than the combat ( which is long in itself dont get me wrong).
Most games you would say, pick all that stuff up ill deal with it later. This one you click on each little corpse which is difficult to highlight.
Anyhow, too much clicking.
And heres what it MOST needs : AUTO COMBAT!!!!!!!
Any turn based strategy game has auto combat. When the fight is easy and u dont feel like clikcing 1200 times, the dumb computer AI will take over.
This is the perfect game for it, they obviously have the ai built in. |
Sat Sep 27, 2003 5:45 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
From developer's perspective, understandably it's not easy to develope an excellent software or products for consumer. As J.E. Sawyer said at Atari forums, implementation of D&D 3.5 rule set is not a easy task. But in this case, for us (the consumer), what we concern about is whether your products (various software, games, etc) worth our money. The bugs, and all kind of other difficulties is under reponsibility of developers; and it's their job to make sure that their products is as good as advertised. And no one who is sensible enough would demand a complete 100% bug-free software.
Of course, no one is exactly sure why TOEE end up as in current state. It's not a bad game, or extremely buggy to point of unplayable, but just contain too much unpolished aspects (interface, game engine), broken D&D 3.5 rules, missing content (removing children without properly rewriting the dialogs), etc.
As for Troika should sharing the responsiblity; well, why not. i'm suspicious when Tim Cain start rolling initiative to dodge certain questions in the chat. If you cast "reveal alignment" spell Tim Cain probably turn up to be Lawful Evil.
What boggle me most:
1) Some of the bugs and technical inconsistency is vey apparent in the game. It's not some kind of elusive bugs (which is more acceptable to me in retail version), and somehow Troika lets them pass (deadline approaching, and probably hoping the QA Team would cath the bugs), and yet mysterously the QA Team "didn't aware" of the bugs, and now we all end up with the bugs in the game. Even more mysterously, some how Atari able to released TOEE to retailer one week ealier than previously announced!. Why Atari seem so hurry?... This looks like another business or marketing decision that probably good for publisher-retailer, but put consumers in unfortunated position (receiving end of the buggy product).
2) Censoring the game. I am not promoting nudity in game, but what's the point of censoring TOEE?. It's hardcore D&D, how good it's for kids?. The poll at Atari forums showed that about 98% of vistors or buyers of TOEE is above 17 years old, 80% is beyong 25 years old. Atari also publishing NWN, how come NWN has brothel and kids, but not TOEE?. Something to do with Hasbro? (who selling many products for children).
Addendum: J.E. Sawyer from Interplay forums offer some insights -
quote:
Doomsayer wrote:
With everyone who has a hand in ToEE's gutting Atari had final say,
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Josh -No, in fact, they do not. WotC has the rights to review content even if Atari is fine with it. That is within WotC's contractual agreements that were made with Hasbro and then passed on to Infogrames/Atari. They can review rules implementation, writing style, graphical depictions of characters -- basically any content of the game.
The people who reviewed content and rules in IWD2: WotC people. The people who reviewed content and rules in BG:DA2: WotC people. The people who reviewed content and rules in ToEE: WotC people. I'm sure Atari was part of the process, but the core arbiters of content are people from Wizards of the Coast.
-Their content review policies have become much more strict in the past four to six months. This coincides with their recent revisions of the d20 license.
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:40 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
@The Mighty Stamar, you realise you can asign hotkeys to items from the radial menu (such as spells) so you can access them instantly?
I have to disagree on the autocombat. The whole advantage of a good turn-based system is that I get to plan every battle unlike, say, NWN where you largely just click on an enemy and wait. Each to his own, though.
Atari and WotC/Hasbro must jointly share responsibility for the missing content. There's no doubt that WotC would have been regularly reviewing the product from the beginning, so it seems clear that either WotC changed their mind late in development or Troika were unable to complete these changes in the available time frame. Either way, it would have been Atari's decision to accept a gold candidate in this state rather than have it tidied up.
As for releasing early, I'm not sure there's much to this. The game went gold around the time I expected it would to make the release date and it seems the duplication went faster than expected. This really varies from publisher to publisher - some take one week and some take 4-6 weeks. A bigger question is whether Atari should have passed that particular gold candidate or not in the first place.
At any rate, although the missing content is disappointing the only other thing I've noticed is enemies who drink potions and don't provoke an AoO - a little annoying but no big deal. I'm having a lot of fun...more than other games with less bugs but poorer gameplay. In the end, how much fun I have is the only issue for me. |
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Sat Sep 27, 2003 11:14 pm |
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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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I don’t have the game, but I want to give my $.02.
I’ve been lurking over at the official forum since it came out. I’ve been waiting for this game fore a while now. Not nearly as long as I waited for NWN and Pool of Radiance, but pretty long.
When it came out I ran to the forums to see what people where saying about it. Needless to say I was very disappointed. My heart dropped. I was looking forward to this game so much.
Anyway, I heard Troika had two years to make the game. They ran out of money 1.75 years into it and so Atari made them go gold before it was done.
If that’s true, dam Atari for being idiots but dam Troika for not being able to get it done with the budget they had. Ever CRPG fan says the same thing, if you want to cut graphics and flash and flare in favor of content go right ahead.
But double dam Atari for taking the M rating out of a D&D game that, the poles have proven, is being plaid by over 27 year olds the most. Its hard core D&D for heavens sake. Who’s going to flawk to this game the most? Old guys like me that grew up with it. LAME. By fare. Stupid idiots. What where they thinking. That beyond all else pisses me off so much. That’s just plain asinine.
By the way, I will be getting the game but after the patch is released or it can be had for under $20 on eBay. |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 6:45 am |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
Everyone has different opinions and what not.
This game is a hell of a lot better than pool of radiance ( which I liked actually but didnt finish) and NWN which I also liked and finished.
Much more polished in release form. Much better made. Fewer bugs. |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:01 am |
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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
Everyone has different opinions and what not.
This game is a hell of a lot better than pool of radiance ( which I liked actually but didnt finish) and NWN which I also liked and finished.
Much more polished in release form. Much better made. Fewer bugs.
Wait. I want to understand you perfectly clear. Yoru saying ToEE is more polished and Better than Neverwinter Nights?
There’s some things I would like to have change in NWN, party building for instance, but over all, its nearly the end-all be-all for CRPG’s. Your telling me ToEE is as good?
I’m not trying to flame you or set you up to be flamed. I have the 850MB demo sitting on my hard drive and I haven’t plaid it. Every time I go to do it I read somewhere about how cumbersome the interface is, or how chopped it is from the removal of quests and just how over-all FUBAR it is and I loose my motivation.
Would you really consider ToEE to be that good? |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:56 am |
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oozle
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 112
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Having played NWN extensively, I'd have to say TOEE isn't as good. However, it comes awfully close.
and also, TOEE and NWN are so very different types of games.
TOEE is more of a RPG turned combat simulator, whereas NWN is a full fledged RPG. Although TOEE doesn't have the complex character interaction / story such as BG2: SOA it doesn't lose its impact, since it excels in what it tries to achieve - a hardcore combat experience.
NWN was sort of a mixed bag. On the one hand, it tried to recreate what BG2 did, albeit in isometric 3D. The gameworld feels disjointed, the character interaction is aweful, and the story is so so. Its only saving grace is when viewed as a whole, it simply is an enjoyable RPG.
Both games have their good and bad points. |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:56 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
First off, everyone is going to see this differently so this is just my opinion. I should also mention that bugs that aren't show-stoppers don't generally bother me too much - many people will see this differently.
I had lots of problems with the MP aspect of NWN so frankly ToEE has been less troublesome for me than NWN but it's not a fair comparison, so I'll leave that be.
I have played an ongoing weekly MP NWN game for the best part of a year now, so I very much enjoy playing it with my friends. The mods are incredible. On the other hand the SP game is somewhere between bad and mediocre. The gameplay bears little resemblance to D&D and the campaign is dull. It's so not the be-all end-all for me.
ToEE is so much better than the NWN OC I really can't describe it. I think the interface is (largely) excellent. The missing content is irritating - but so what? It doesn't change the stuff that's good. Having said that, if you don't like TB combat or parties you'll see this completely differently.
But...if you have the trialware version - why the heck don't you find out for yourself? Ignore the forums; most forums erupt in complaints on an RPG release. The NWN forums were pretty rocky in the beginning. Lots of players who are having fun aren't ever going to bother to register and post about it. Judge for yourself! |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 11:03 am |
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Pico
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 14
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I've been looking for a game like PofR for some time now. Sounds like TofEE may be that.
I like what NWN has done. The tool kit will make it able for anyone to make a better single player campaign. Just because the shipped version sucked, doesn’t mean all subsequent models have to. It has endless possibilities limited only by peoples imagination and Bioware will to mod the engine for the gamers.
There much talk about making the entire forgotten realms to explore, each different mod for different users will plug in seamlessly to the Forgotten Realms "template." The only real change that has to be made is for overland travel.
But one key element is missing for me. In order for me to truly get into the D&D world I need to create my own party. This may never happen
I only consider NWN to be the end-all be-all, not for what it is, but for what it can be. Or should I say, what people WANT it to be....
But it has some seriuse short-falls in its curant form for me... |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 5:43 pm |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
quote:
Every time I go to do it I read somewhere about how cumbersome the interface is, or how chopped it is from the removal of quests and just how over-all FUBAR it is and I loose my motivation.
I find the interface adequate. The radial menu is simply easy to use, and to be quite honest, I never noticed there was content removed until I read it on the forums a few days ago. ToEE excels at being the dungeon crawl module it was made to be. Graphics, sound, and combat are all excellent.
NWN, it lives and dies off the user mods and MP. What more can I say? I hated the OC, but have found so many enjoyable mods of the great quality at NWvault. NWN is worth the admission fee just for the mods: The Dreamcatcher series, Lone Wolf Chronicles, Graveron Seduction, Sunless Citadel, Sapphire Star, Forge of Fury, Gates of Myth Drannor...and many more. Then there's the DM client and MP. Quite a package, I only wish Bioware would include direct control of parties up to three for SP.
The moral of the story is this- NWN= RPG maker, ToEE= dungeon crawl. Both excel at what they do.
_________________
= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 7:57 pm |
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the mighty stamar
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 602
Location: arcata ca, humboldt county |
quote:
Originally posted by Pico
quote:
Originally posted by the mighty stamar
Everyone has different opinions and what not.
This game is a hell of a lot better than pool of radiance ( which I liked actually but didnt finish) and NWN which I also liked and finished.
Much more polished in release form. Much better made. Fewer bugs.
Wait. I want to understand you perfectly clear. Yoru saying ToEE is more polished and Better than Neverwinter Nights?
There’s some things I would like to have change in NWN, party building for instance, but over all, its nearly the end-all be-all for CRPG’s. Your telling me ToEE is as good?
I’m not trying to flame you or set you up to be flamed. I have the 850MB demo sitting on my hard drive and I haven’t plaid it. Every time I go to do it I read somewhere about how cumbersome the interface is, or how chopped it is from the removal of quests and just how over-all FUBAR it is and I loose my motivation.
Would you really consider ToEE to be that good?
NWN has fewer bugs today more than a year later. This is thirty some patches later as well. When it came out it was much less polished and more buggy, I think that is acurate.
That said I have run into a game ending serious bug in TOEE that causes you to reload an earlier save. The bug is recurring, I think it will happen all game. Monsters can randomly apear in walls, you cant kill them and you cant leave. You have to reload so that is serious.
The interface is complex. Difficulty is high, I end up quitting a lot because the next fight is so tough sometimes. If youre not into that maybe its not for you.
Its a great game. Its much better than NWN yes I think so. You can say apples and oranges, but this apple is much better than the orange. |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 5:07 am |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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ToEE is one of the best games for long time. With ironman and turned battles where you can really plan-to-live (and stay alive) it feels like real roleplaying game ala pen and paper. (i.e) I actually scout with ranger and try to track enemies ahead. One of my wiz died (npc extra) but he was going for that for long time. (i didnt like him anyway good riddance)
I got myself all the way to the temple but then after many battles my whole party was annihilated in multiple firestorms. I went down through a secret door but never found my way back up. 
First party was:
Barbarion orc
Barbarion human
druid elf
bard half-elf
ranger elf
+occasional npcs
(neutral good party since i read from ToEE forums that the evil quests are broken thx due to atari removing large parts of evil content to get T-rating?) |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 6:46 am |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
From a gameplay perspective ToEE is definitely not for a beginner gamer. Not to say that it doesn't hold your attention, but it's alot more challenging than NWN is. you really do have to strategize more in this one, which i personally love. I have no doubt that troika is going to maintain this game well with patches and probably have some mods to open up some of the features left out for the ratings down the line.
Edit:
Speaking of which i just saw this posted at the news forum
http://www.avault.com/news/displaynews.asp?story=9302003-6251 |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:50 pm |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
quote:
Not to say that it doesn't hold your attention, but it's alot more challenging than NWN is.
I disagree to an extent. I'm currently playing Sapphire Star, a NWN module obviously, and there's strategicly placed enemies and some tough battles. I find myself taking full advantage of my druid's spells, feats, and skills. You'll find, if done right of course, NWN can be quite challenging. ...and I'm not saying ToEE isn't, the game is hardcore, plus there's more micromanagement with a party of six.
_________________
= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Fri Oct 03, 2003 5:51 am |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
I was referring in general to the official original game modules and not to the myriad of player created mods available for NWN. I've played a few and most of them, since they are player made, definitely offer more challenges. Yes there is much more micromanagement in a six party system, but for pen and paper players that's something you're used to mostly. |
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Fri Oct 03, 2003 4:01 pm |
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