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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
| Do you happy with the ways Atari handles TOEE?. |
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The highlights from RPG Codex's IRC chat:
quote:
Q: If there is to be a patch...
A: infact a build made after the gold build that Atari chose not to go with.
Q: At a later point will the M rated amterial be put in as an "unofficial" patch?
A: Atari still approves the patches and demos. So no.
Q: did Atari make you publish ToEE too soon, thus leaving some of the more apparent bugs?
A: Those aren't really decisions that developers get to make. It is often the job of the publisher to decide when they feel a product is ready. (My comments; this sucks big time, only developer themselves know their game is really ready or not, not "the suits" who sitting in office smoking cigar, who know about making money but not about making game).
Q: Besides removing the kids, has the game been altered in any other signigicant way as a result of switching ratings?
A: Yes. Several dialogs and quests were removed entirely, as were some characters...One whole map with side quests, the brothel in Nulb, was removed
Another case of censorship runs amok.
So TOEE is kiddie game for kiddies?. I doubt most kids today's would care about the 3.5 rule set. How many kids aware about Gary Gygax or Chainmail? Isn't Shooters are more favored by kids and forums for games like HL2 and Max Payne 2 has more young visitors?, posting nonsenses and threatening to make Alyx (HL2) naked via editing tools?. And how many youngsters haven't played GTA 3 or Vice City?.
Another case of game been rushed.
Oh, so Atari pulled the plug (no money) and Troika needed to finish the game quicker? (in 20 months instead of the "supposed" 24). Is this rushed thing something new?. Sadly - nope. It will happens again and again and again..... Another good reason for gamer to wait for couple weeks, check up some reviews and early buyer's comments before deciding...
Another case of bug-ridden game.
So who's the main culprit here? Troika?, Atari?. Surely Troika sharing some of the faults. But what's up with Atari's QA Team?. As reported at Atari forums, some of the bugs is very obvious and easy to spot them for anyone who playing the game for couple hours. If you are "luckier," you can even find the bugs within minutes. What the heck the QA Team is doing when testing?. I bet mostly what their did is censoring, pulling out "unnecessary" content as instructed by Atari. Atari didn't even consider the second gold (better) version of the game that Troika sent, instead just kicking the game onto the shelf for sale.
Conclusion.
Atari = An evil Gnoll. Character traits:
Strength +4,
Constitution +2,
Intelligence 3,
Charisma 4. |
Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:47 am |
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oozle
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 Dec 2001
Posts: 112
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Never thought I'd say this about a 2d rpg, but the gfx are some of the best i've ever seen in a game!
Seems so far like an awesome game.
How do u walk in this game btw? No matter what movement mode I click my party seems to always run |
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:00 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I'll tell you what's bugging me about Atari. The online store I pre-ordered the game from has not yet received copies to ship out to its customers. They have been trying to get the copies in, but so far no luck. They are not happy, their customers are not happy and I am not happy. Thank you Atari!!  
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:46 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
Who's fault is it that a game is being rushed? What if Troika already missed a previously agreed deadline, or maybe even several of them. What if Troika found out that they simpley could not do the game in the agreed timeframe and they needed more time?
To what extend should a publisher go along with this. I don't know what they paid Troika upto now to finance this game, but it'll be easily a million or more. Do you have any idea how much money a publisher looses just because a game developer is unable to reach the timelines? How much money do you feel is acceptable for Atari to loose because of that?
Atari has contracts with distributors and they have contracts for buying shelf space in the shops. They all stand to loose money if the game is delayed.
I'm against games that are released before they should be and I think Atari should not have released this game AND I think that Troika is playing the good samaritan a bit too much. They are just as repsonsible as Atari is for the status of the game. Apparently the game was too complex to finish in the given timeframe. They should have seen that coming long before the releasedate and should have taken the appropriate actions.
This is a business, just like any other business, but somehow we feel that business rules should not apply to the games industry. We have our own set of rules.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:28 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
M, I agree with much of what you say, BUT should ANY product that contains major flaws be released befor those flaws are fixed? Imagine it was a new car, or worse a new plane!! Just because there are contracts to buy/sell, should they be released if they are not fully ready? You can argue that a game is not a car or plane, but to me the principle is the same no matter what the product. When I pay for a game (and I buy a lot) then it should be in perfectly playable condition. Anything less is NOT acceptable to me the consumer. We expect and demand it for other products we buy, why not this one?
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:13 pm |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
I agree with corwin. Most of us wouldn't by a toothpaste that only halfway cleans our teeth so why should we, the consumers, buy a game that isn't as fine-tuned as it should be? Consumers will buy another toothpaste and now will buy another crpg. Although not completely at fault, Atari probably would have benefited from a later release date. Especially since this game has potential for a sequel.
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= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:50 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
You can argue that a game is not a car or plane, but to me the principle is the same no matter what the product.
Unfortunately the principle isnīt the same. The difference between something like a bridge, for example and a software -letīs call it 'Sim Bridge' - is that the material characteristics of every single small part of the bridge are known. You only have to type them into your pocket calculator and after a few weeks of precise work you know if it works as intended or not. Nowadays this verification work can be done more or less automatically.
Software cannot be verified automatically. Iīm even 99% sure it has been scientifically proven that automatic verification programs canīt be created. So all verification work has to be done by hand! This is only done in the most important cases like nuclear power plants or Airbus engine control software. Can you imagine how much fun it is to proof the correctness of 20 telephone books full of source code, one line after the other? No software developer would do this unless he gets significantly more money and unlimited time.
And yes, if the game has so many bugs I think Atari should have given Troika a few weeks more to fix the most important ones. But what do we know ... maybe the game was in even worse condition and Atari did exactly that?!?
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:53 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Everyone accepts that no game will ever be 100% bug free, but some have come close. Others have been and are a disgrace. Obvious bugs that crop up in standard play after only a few hours, should have been found and fixed. That's what QA is all about. That's what Remus was talking about. I haven't forgotten U9 and have never bought another EA product. I have a VERY long memory.
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 12:08 am |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
I still agree with corwin. Software has never been 100% bug-free, but a good goal would be around 90% or so. The vast majority of consumers don't care about the complexity of software coding...they only care about their standards of how the product should be. They expect that new car to be in perfect working condition and they expect that new software to be error free. Whether it is Atari's and/or Troika's fault is not so much an issue as its apparant ToEE has some serious bug flaws that hurt both parties in the end. It doesn't effect a gamer like me as much, since I'm looking past the bugs and enjoying the game, but for casual gamers or those gamers who see the 75-85% reviews are most likely turned off.
_________________
= Member of The Nonflamers' Guild =
= Member of The Alliance of Middle-Earth =
= Not just a member, but a client of The Followers of Righteousness =
"Stand back...there's a hurricane coming through..." |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 4:29 am |
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Northchild
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 232
Location: New York, USA |
I find that, as I get older, I care very little about bug lists, etc. I download patches as they become available, but for the most part I'm blissfully ignorant of bugs and shortcomings in games.
To tell you the honest truth, I wouldn't have noticed any of the bugs on the TOEE list that I looked up today before reading about said bugs in the Atari forums. TOEE installed fine and works fine on my system... two crash-to-desktops in maybe 20 hours of play.
I'm sure that more than a few here remember spending three days getting games like the Bards Tale to work on machines that were compatable with any given game 60 to 70 percent of the time. Hell, I remember weeks of cursing Sierra because I couldn't get their stuff to work with various sound cards, (when sound for the PC other than "beep" was shiny and new), only to be sure to run out to buy the next adventure in whatever line that they were advancing at the moment. I think that I even missed out on stuff like the Manhunter sequel and that German RPG (Darkstone was it?) that people mention here from time-to-time because my PC was *just* incompatable enough to mess the installations up. Don't even get me started on pre-Internet stuff... when 115 and 300 baud modems were cool and before SysOps started charging by the minute for online games like TradeWars and such.
I sound like my father, and hate it... but there's so much relatively inexpensive, reliable entertainment out today that I would have absolutely *killed* for when I was in my teens and early to mid 20's. PCs have become commodities - you couldn't get a PC that played the latest games for less than US$3000, and your alternative (for the most part) was stuff like Mario Brothers... console RPGs were even fewer and farther between than they are now. Games cost US$50 back then too, making them much more expensive overall than they are today, accounting for inflation. Plus there's a range of used and budget stuff on the shelf right now that eclipses the entire market up to 1998.
Sure, the voice acting in TOEE isn't Broadway material. Maybe a rule here and there isn't perfect. Some people probably can't get the thing to work and have to return it. As for me, I put the disc in the drive and the game goes. I enjoy a good turn-based RPG, and if this were 1986, I'd probably still be hunting through the bulky game box looking for any scrap that might offer a clue about how to get some esoteric piece of hardware to work with the game. Good turn-based RPGs, and especially RPGs without a lot of over-dramatic crap masquerading as plot and character development that can't be skipped over by pressing the spacebar, are few and far between. If you like these sorts of games, then give Trokia or Atari or whomever made TOEE a big warm fuzzy hug in the form of your $49.99 plus tax and tip, and watch an R-rated film while you're playing if you miss the profanity and "adult", (using the term loosely of course), themes. 
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New to 3D? Check out www.3dbuzz.com today! |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:37 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
A very thoughtful and well written comment. Only one gripe, I didn't spend any extra time getting Bard's Tale to work, and it's still on my PC!! 
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 8:49 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
M, I agree with much of what you say, BUT should ANY product that contains major flaws be released befor those flaws are fixed? Imagine it was a new car, or worse a new plane!! Just because there are contracts to buy/sell, should they be released if they are not fully ready? You can argue that a game is not a car or plane, but to me the principle is the same no matter what the product. When I pay for a game (and I buy a lot) then it should be in perfectly playable condition. Anything less is NOT acceptable to me the consumer. We expect and demand it for other products we buy, why not this one?
There were some other reponses, but I'm not gonna quote everyone, so this is just to highlight one thing.
Software development is immature (sp?). To me that's a fact. In my 10 year experience as a software project leader I learned a lot, one of the things is that you will never win lost time back in a project. If your project is delayed 1 day after the first two weeks. Then your total project will be one day later. As most game developing projects take more than a year, this can add up. You basically only have 3 options after you find out a delay:
- Just delay the project
- Get more people
- Take features out
The first option makes the project more expensive and delays it.
The second option makes the project more expensive and keeps it on achedule
The third one makes the project just as expensive as it was and keeps it on schedule, but with less features.
Unfortunately most project leaders find out that their project is being delayed close to the end of the project. A time when there is not much you can do about that anymore. So you have your 3 options again. The get more people is not so viable anymore as it's highly inefficient to do that near the end of the project. The features are already in, so taking them out is not an option either. And you don't want to delay the game. The situation is hopeless, unfortunately they see one way out of things, which is just reducing the last phase of the project. This last phase of a project is focussed on testing.
I don't know how this project at Troika went. I have no inside information and things might have gone completely different than I imagine them to be. If I am right however then Troika is to blame for bad project management. Not every developer or producer is a good project leader. Come to think of it, most project leaders aren't good project leaders either 
And no, I don't consider myself to be good either. There are many better than I am, but unfortunately there are many worse than me also.
As a contrast to the above. If you look at how bridges, cars and such are created then the main focus is on project management and not on how we can bring in all those kewl features.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 9:11 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
M, you're right and you're wrong. I understand WHY it happens, and I sympathise, I really do, but it's NOT a valid excuse to sell a shonky product and I'm not saying TOEE is a shonky product, I'm still awaiting delivery. There is NO excuse for rushing a product , untested, out the door. We don't accept it in anything else and we shouldn't accept it here. If it costs more to delay the product and test it properly, then SO BE IT. Why should I PAY for imperfect goods. I'd rather pay more for something I know will work properly, than pay less for something that totally frustrates me. I think shoving a game out into the market too early is false economy; you create dissatisfied customers, never a good thing. I don't like it when M$ does the same thing either.
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:58 am |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
Well in case I made myself not clear. I agree with you on that. There is no excuse to sell a shonky product as you put it.
Customers have only one power, which is not buying it. If all games would come with a waranty, like on other products then they would be much more carefull. But as long as we keep on buying the stuff anyway (or ordering it  ) they will feel safe.
_________________
Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
Why quote somebody else, think of something yourself. - XeroX
...you won't have to unbookmark this site, we'll unbookmark you. - Val
Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Thu Sep 25, 2003 1:32 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
I am not an expert at game disign or software engineering. Without the talents or experence in these areas it is impossible for me to fix blame. First off, there is little blame for me to fix on anyone. The game crashed on first install, but I reinstalled it again, and I have had no problems (no CTD or anything else). What bothers me so far, is how incomplete the game world feels without kids, and it is missing something else I cant put my finger on. Childern are referred to over and over again, but you never see them, the last minute pull out hurt, significantly, the overall atmosphere of the game. The more elusive quality missing is a polish on certain things game play wise: having to cast identify over and over to idenitfy potions, and the lack of options to rent a room to rest in or buy and sell from an NPC without an extra click in dialogue mode (should be on the first menu). Most of the other bugs listed on the ToEE web site seem minor, and can easly be fixed in a patch. I fault Atari for not speaking up on when a patch can be expected, and for taking out elements of the game that are essental for the story. This game is realy good, a shame that Troika and Atari cant work out their problems to make it work in the long run, I realy would like to see alot of games with this combat system.
I agree, people need a way to return broken software or a warrenty, however, without better copy protection (something I dont care for because it often gets in the way of the game), companies are not going to allow it. It is too easy to burn a game and return it as is. Somewhere the customers, the technology, and the companies need to find a solution. I wonder if companies do want a solution though, so it may be too costly for them to finish a project before selling it.
LB |
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Fri Sep 26, 2003 10:47 pm |
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