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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,151085,00.html
in the last 8 years, there have been 15 shootouts from kids at school. most of the shooters survived, and there was even one with 3 times a lifetime in prison, plus 140 years. and another one with 210 years. even a 6 year old kid who shot his friend, also 6 years old.
these shoot-outs are... somehow strange. what a sick mind must a kid has, to take a gun and actually fire it. I can't even imagine it to kill somebody in cold blood, and even grin, and wave! And then the second thing, that he killed his grandparents before that, also unthinkable. those kids must be mentaly distorted, or even worse.
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Always wondering how it would be... |
Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:17 pm |
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AZKaban
Village Dweller
Joined: 11 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
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I don't think it was in cold blood. Most likely the shooters were outcasts, teased and bullied every day by everyone, and once they grabbed a gun to end it all..
Although, grandparents do not fit in the picture..
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Harry Potter |
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Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:28 pm |
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Cm
Sentinel of Light
Joined: 26 Jan 2003
Posts: 5209
Location: Missouri USA |
These situations are very sad. They are so senseless, and all the victims, even if they were bullies at school, don't deserve to die.
It is a complex mental state these kids find themselves in. They have many deep issues and problems they are not coping with and need help with, but are getting none. Most of the time you will learn they have faked being "fine" so well for so long that their pain and the problems causing it come as a surprize to the rest of the world.
I think the worst, the most painful, and most destructive thing that we grow up feeling is that we are different and no one will understand or even accept if we share those feelings with others. This can be worse for some, but the lack of knowledge that it is normal and how to deal with it can cause real damage.
And as I am rambling on, I will stop. It is a complex issue with no one answer that will stop it. 
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Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:27 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It is far too easy for kids to get their hands on firearms these days.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:39 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
Kids shooting eachothers with guns is a very sick phenomenon  .
When these sort of things happen, its usually the USA in the limelight.I'm not saying that our schools here in Europe are all perfect, but the guns are far bigger problem in the States, than they are in here.
These sort of news are allways a miserable reading.I'll hope the society would learn something from this, like legislating strictier gunlaws.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:05 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I know I'm very biased, but taking God out of schools is, IMO part of the reason. I'll not say anymore as I don't want to begin a major religious discussion!!
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:45 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by Dez
When these sort of things happen, its usually the USA
Yes, this also came to my mind.
Discussion forums in our country are (when such a shooting happen) full of anti-US talks and hate. I hope we are all wise enough not to start flamewar about the US. But I would like to know your opinion about why it usually happens in the US? |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 7:15 am |
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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
I think in the US, guns are gained way easier then here, in Europe.
I'm taking the Netherlands for a small example;
I have never seen any store here, that sold firearms, and I have seen quite much of my country. though, in the US, you see gun stores quite much, just in a normal street. in the US, it is also possible to get a license quite easy, but even without it many people there have a gun.
I'm not flaming against the US, this is just my opinion.
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Always wondering how it would be... |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 12:00 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
Access to guns isn't a new thing in the US. Since the country's birth, guns have always been readily available, so IMO that rules out the theory of needing to keep a tighter reign on guns.
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If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:49 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It is true that guns have always been around in the US and not hard to access. Every year there are enough accidents involving children who get access... it's the way it is.
Tighter gun legislation would help, a little. Mostly it would make sure that only the bad guys had guns, though.
The real question is why is it happening more often now than it has in the past? If access to weaponry isn't to blame, since it's always been there, then something else has to have changed. It used to be a kid who got picked on enough would either deal with it or kill themselves ... occassionally killing their aggressor. That's fine... that's un-natural selection at work and isn't unexpected. A tragedy, sure, but not unexpected.
It's the blind rage and desire to take revenge on everyone and everything around them when they snap that's increasing in frequency. Murder/suicide is still far more common, of course, but mass murder/suicide is on the rise.
There's no doubt in my mind that kids these days face all sorts of pressures that even I didn't have to endure (though I was consistenly beaten, bullied, and ostracized my entire school life). Is it as simple as that more pressure/cruelty is leading to greater acts of retaliation... or is it something more?
As for taking God out of the schools ... well, without getting too far into it (though I don't mind a good discussion) it's as simple as this, I believe: Freedom of religion is granted to all but only Christian worship was being represented in school. To not be hypocritical (as it was for decades) either God had to come out or the others had to go in. Logistics wise, if nothing else, there could be only one decision in that regard.
Two, actually, but I doubt any president would ever be fool enough to attempt to revoke Freedom of Religion.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 5:03 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
I know I'm very biased, but taking God out of schools is, IMO part of the reason. I'll not say anymore as I don't want to begin a major religious discussion!!
I´m with you there, Corwin.
xen has a point when he says that due to the right of freedom of religion there must be no gods at all or every god you can think of in the school, in which case it is easier to take the no-option.
But still, in my experience a school with some kind of religion has a better atmosphere, the people in such a school have a common denominator and because of that they often get along better.
So specific schools for specific religions is a good thing IMO.
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If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:36 pm |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
quote:
Originally posted by tolgerias
quote:
Originally posted by corwin
I know I'm very biased, but taking God out of schools is, IMO part of the reason. I'll not say anymore as I don't want to begin a major religious discussion!!
I´m with you there, Corwin.
xen has a point when he says that due to the right of freedom of religion there must be no gods at all or every god you can think of in the school, in which case it is easier to take the no-option.
But still, in my experience a school with some kind of religion has a better atmosphere, the people in such a school have a common denominator and because of that they often get along better.
So specific schools for specific religions is a good thing IMO.
But here we are in RPGDot, different religions. But we all are going along...
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 6:54 pm |
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tolgerias
High Emperor
Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 770
Location: The Netherlands |
@ X-d but still we have some things in common (same interests, surf on the same site etc.), just like religious people do. And that is IMO just the thing which makes people get along with each other.
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If you can't debate without namecalling then don't bother visiting us. -Myrthos |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:13 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
The problem isn't inanimate objects. Nor is it their availability. The problem is accountability. People aren't held responsible for their actions. They're swatted on the wrist. Or worse, in the school that my father teaches at, delinquents are rewarded with a candy bar and a lecture. No punishment, no line in the sand that should never be crossed, zip, zero, nada. And to top it off, now minors in the US can no longer be given life sentences, let alone the death penalty for their actions.
It isn't guns, or video games, or movies, or any of that. It's the lack of accountability.
I've had access to guns my whole life. I've played “violent” video games and watched tv and movies most of my life. Have I killed anyone? No. I've had ample motivation and opportunity. So why didn't I? Well, I knew there'd be one hell of beating from my Dad if I so much as pointed a gun at someone and pretended to shoot them. He made it very clear at a young age that guns can kill and that they aren't toys and should only be used for self-defense and hunting for food. That's their purpose. I knew that taking another's life without just cause is morally wrong, another thing my Dad and Mom taught me. I knew my family would be very disappointed in me. I knew God would be very disappointed with me. I knew there would be punishment, guilt, loneliness, and an entire list of other problems that I did not and still do not want to deal with. Killing another person, whether in cold blood or in anger, is something I will never do because I know the price I'll end up paying far out-weighs the momentary satisfaction of killing someone who is tormenting me. It's tempting to end it all, but I think I'll opt for enduring to the end. The rewards are better and I dislike hot weather, so Hell isn't on my list of places to visit.
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 9:41 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
The problem isn't inanimate objects. Nor is it their availability.
Hm, I think that statement might be a bit too general, Val. It really depends on the circumstances.
In this particular case and in the Columbine High School incident, availability surely played a very minor role because the killers planned their actions well in advance. If guns wouldn't have been available immediately, they would have found ways to obtain them to realize their plans.
On the other hand, I'm fairly certain that a good number of affect shootings could be prevented if guns were not available immediately. There are people who can get extremely agitated and who suffer from what I think is called a "redout" which leads to a total loss of self-control for a short period of time. The immediate availability of a gun can have very severe consequences when you're dealing with someone like that.
quote:
The problem is accountability. People aren't held responsible for their actions. They're swatted on the wrist. Or worse, in the school that my father teaches at, delinquents are rewarded with a candy bar and a lecture. No punishment, no line in the sand that should never be crossed, zip, zero, nada. And to top it off, now minors in the US can no longer be given life sentences, let alone the death penalty for their actions.
It isn't guns, or video games, or movies, or any of that. It's the lack of accountability.
Partially agree but I think you have to differentiate and be careful about who you are dealing with.
People with a severe personality disorder who are bullied, harassed and either mentally or physically abused might actually grow their hate against "society" if you are punishing them.
The challenge (and it's an extremely tough challenge) lies in recognizing someone who is on the verge of taking revenge for what he/she had to endure all their life.
People like that need treatment, not punishment. They need to learn to trust people, they need to learn positivity and they need to be given a perspective. Punishing them might turn them into a killer instead of preventing it from happening.
On the other hand, people who are mentally stable but are just going through some sort of "phase" might respond well to punishment. Again, the challenge lies in differentiating between these types of people.
I'm not a shrink but I hope they have the tools to figure out what type of critter they're dealing with  .
---
Finally, I don't think that incidents like these can be prevented effectively. This guy here (Jeff Weise) and the Columbine killers were quite obviously not afraid of any punishment. They were apparently planning on their own deaths in advance so there was nothing stopping them from executing their plans.
Only God Himself knows if there would have been a way to prevent this from happening by intervening months (or maybe even years) prior to the shootings. Maybe, maybe not...
Fact seems to be that we're dealing with extremely disturbed individuals in both cases and the scary thing is that there's many more out there. The question is when/why will they tip over completely and actually start killing people?
There's not much we all can do except for being as vigilant as humanly possible. |
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Wed Mar 23, 2005 11:46 pm |
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