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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Please read what I say, before coming with a foolish outburst.. I already mentioned bucklers, and they weren't used in the same way as shields. To fight with a buckler require a different technique than a shield.
The reason why it's simple, yet brilliant, is because of the design. It's just complex enough to make it interesting, but not too difficult to understand/use. A shield-based fighting system ends up a "hack/slash" system where you block-hit, block-hit. Even if a game has a complex fighting system with shields, you end up using the block-hit method because it's the easiest way to win the fights. In Gothic, however, the easiest way is to use the different combinations(if you say otherwise, you're an inexperienced player). That is why it's simple, yet brilliant. If this system is too difficult for you, than I'm sorry to say you're too young to play RPGs, and should start playing shoot'em up games, or the superlinear, superboring games such as Diablo II. Another choice is, of course, to play Morrowind, but the combat system there only requires stats. As long as your hero is strong enough and good enough with a sword, he can hack'n slash his way through anything.. the player could be a 5 year-old klicking on the opponent.
And another little detail.. mages did exist and cut-throats did not use shields. Now he is asking himself "what?".
Answer: Magicians/wizards existed, but only as advisors, and was believed to have healing capabilites. Some believed them to be able to shot fire out their arses and so on, but this is, of course, not true. They did not use any armour, because they were "supreme".. never needed any.
Cut-throats rely on killing the opponent before they even see them. They are mostly assassins and robbers, and never engange in open-field combat. There were also a few "mercenary-armies" back in the days, but they were mostly barbarians, and used very light equipment such as leather armour. An example would be the dreaded mercenary army of the vikings which worked for Constantinopel.. they wielded two-handed axes and wore light armour.. no shields.
A lesson for the future, do not try to make people look like fools in here, and don't call them "idiots" and so on.. it's against the rules. |
Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:55 am |
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Hagen
Counselor of the King
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 350
Location: England |
Maylander, your just coming across as rude and arrogant now, all this "please read what I say"... Try listening to what other peoples views are and stop trying to shove your point of view down other peoples throats...
There is nothing wrong with changing gothic to add new systems even if it does make it like other RPGs, theres nothing wrong with that, thats how games evolve and get better...
The gothic combat system is good, and a shield system certainly wouldnt harm things...
FACT: Some swordsmen carried shields
FACT: They carried them mainly to stop themselves from getting killed by an archers/crossbow man standing 50-100 meters away before they even got a chance to swing their swords.
FACT: Like the two handed swords/bows etc, sheilds could be placed on the heros back, which is what most swordsmen would do, as it saves your arms from aching so bad that when you go into battle you can actually hold the damn thing.
And as for this 'block hit block hit'... It can be just like that in some battles in gothic 2 atm... blocking with swords... you have used the gothic 2 combat system havnt you? You know, the combat system your arguing about... 
The possibilities of adding shields are massive... dont forget warriors could even use their sheilds to knock down/harm their opponents...
_________________
"There are many questions which fools can ask that wise men cannot answer."
--George Polya (1887-1985) |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 12:29 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Yes, shield were used in the old times, as a way to "bash" your opponent, and as a way to "lead" the enemies blows away.
Sure, some used them, and some didn't. It's all a matter of CHOICE.
Combat systems like the one of Diablo are pretty nice. Instead of forcing the player to do the key combinations (just like in a console fighting game) in which the player might misspress some button while doing a 'special move' causing harm to THE SKILLED WARRIOR CHARACTER he's playing, you can choose to use various 'special attacks' by simple mouse clicks etc. an THAT is what requires brains in those kinds of systems. It's easier to mispress in Gothic-style combat, than in Diablo style.
Gothic is overly advanced in the actual FIGHTING-aspect of the combat system (you have to do those kinds of combinations, instead of the simpler mouse-klicking), and overly simplified in the skills and weapons area of the combat system. Two handers and one handers, that's all.
Why do most games have shields? Because they want to be unrealistic? What's so bad having a common trait of games? Do you want to remove dialogues or tradeskills just because other games have them?
As for the block/hit effect, well, in most games shield aren't used as much as dual wielding or two handed combat. In Morrowind you block SSOMETIMES (automatically), and hit CONTANTLY (basically). Stats are important, since it's still a role you're playing.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:14 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Keep calm, people.
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Jaz |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:20 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
YES lets not ask anything new for the gothic-series!if its not broken, don't you PB ever dare to improve anything...we gamers know everything better than you.We all just want gothic3 to be extact same as now?
Well i don't.There is allways room for improvements as there is allways room for people who think every new innovation is bad for some reason.If all the devs would think like those folks, we would get allways games of same kind.I'll hope pb has courrage to improve gameplay.I'll hope they don't listen to people who want to keep things the way they are just because they can't adabt themselves to new things..
Adding shields wouldn't harm gameplay anyway.like adding new spells wouldn't harm either.if you think that shield would be too overpowered, how about making them breakable, like after taking certain amount of damage you would have to repair it?And remember when wielding a shield your both hands would be in USE.So drinking potion..changing weapon would become quite time-consuming.You would actually have tu put your shield behind your back in order to use crossbow for instance etc..
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:43 pm |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
First off Maylander, no one said anything about an issue balance in gothic
And what are you talking about not being able to do things with a shield strapped on????
Doesnt he enequip any weapon before doing all those things anyway? Yes.
And having a shield would reduce gothic to any other rpg???
You mean like the ones that follow the basics of logic on the principle of sword *AND* shield for someone wielding a 1-h weapon?
Oh god, lets not have that...instead lets have our hero fighting with his left free? Is he fencing? Is he Robin Hood or something?...
And adding a shield would reduce the combat system to block-hit?...well how are you fighting now? hit, GET hit, hit?...
or maybe you just hit therm and run away in fear, then repeat the cycle... your fights sound like waste a lot of your time healing yourself or running away
There already IS a block/hit combatsystem in effect and the simple fact is that adding a shield onto his arm wouldnt affect a goddamn thing to it, all it would do is add a bit more realism to the game.
Have a nice day |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:43 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
The reason why I said "please read what I write" is because somebody is writing something addressed to me, without reading what I just wrote.. sort of answering an old post of mine, instead of reading the last.
The reason why I don't want any sudden changes is because Gothic 1-2 is currenty, in my opinion, the best SP RPG in the world. My cousin, a 12 year old, can finish Diablo II on Hell any day.. it requires absoluttely no skill what-so-ever to complete such a game. The same goes for Morrowind. I like a combat system that is challenging, and I can't stand the "click-to-kill" which you see in every other RPG. Instead of trying to make Gothic more like Morrowind, it should be the other way around.. Morrowind has got a replayability close to zero. Why is that? Is it because the game is small with no foes to fight? No, the game is actually HUGE and the number of creatures is at least twice that of Gothic.. for me, it's because I get bored after hacking for some time.. a shield would limit the combat system of Gothic, and the reason is pretty simple:
Reason:
IF you were given the CHOICE of having a shield, you would ALWAYS use it. Ever walked around in Morrowind with a 1H sword and no shield? At least I haven't.. and in Gothic I don't use the block-hit technique Blake84 because it's rather lousy.. try to block a shadowbeast and you're a dead man.. it only works against humans, orcs, and lizardmen, and even against them there are a lot better ways of fighting.
Fact is, I don't know of a single game where you can use shield that has got any sort of combinations or fighting that requires anything but hack'n slash. To be honest I don't think it can be done. If you give me an actual example of a game containing brilliant fighting with shields, I might agree, but so far I have only seen games with block-hit fighting, OR games where the shield just adds to total armour(this could not work in Gothic.. we all know that.. you always use things in gothic, for instance, if you wear plate armour, the arrows bounce off you).
Shrapnel: That's just it. If you paste a shield on his arm, the whole old system would be have to be changed. You can't swing around doing 360s with a shield on your left arm, fighting with your right. That's why PB would have to develop two different systems for 1H fighting. One for shield-fighting, and one for no-shield fighting. This would take a lot of time, because the two systems would have to be equal, otherwise there wouldn't really be a choice. Now, the choice between speed(1h) and force (2h) is a difficult one, and depends on how you wish to play. Very good balance.
How I play now? Depends. Against orcs, humans and lizards I dodge their run-attack, hit twice, dodge, hit four times, and so on.. against the creatures I do a full four-hit combo, and then back twice before I repeat. Of course I adapt to the situation, but in most cases I can win without getting damaged too much(at least against humans, orcs and lizards.. not getting hurt by a storming shadowbeast is difficult, they always manage to hit you once). I rarely use block at all.
Last edited by Maylander on Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:07 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 3:57 pm |
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MC_Renzy
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 04 Nov 2001
Posts: 226
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I agree completely with Shrapnel. The only thing thats changed is he's blocking with a shield rather then his sword. Seems a little more realistic if you ask me. Hopefully they'll consider this and implement it in the third installing. |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:00 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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I don't think that there are many RPGs at all with the key-combo fighting system of Gothic. Why? I'll give you a clue, it's NOT because that developers of Gothic were particularly clever.
It seems you are sadly telling yourself that what Gothic has requires some extra skill. I assure you that is not the case. All you have to do is basically move forward while swinging from side to side and turning towards your opponent. Anyone can do this, and it works, trust me. Sure, you get pretty damaged, but anyone can do it. Same with Diablo 2, if you know how to use the skills, you'll come by pretty unscratched, else no.
And, I get bored after swinging from side to side after some time. Both clicking and this lead towards the same thing, dead enemies. The differance is that this takes extra time and reuires you to be all over the keyboard.
First:
quote:
IF you were given the CHOICE of having a shield, you would ALWAYS use it. Ever walked around in Morrowind with a 1H sword and no shield? At least I haven't.. and in Gothic I don't use the block-hit technique Blake84 because it's rather lousy.. try to block a shadowbeast and you're a dead man.. it only works against humans, orcs, and lizardmen, and even against them there are a lot better ways of fighting.
Why? If only using a one hander made you faster/not as clumsy? We wanted it real eh? Morrowind did not have that kind of feature; 2 different 1 hand systems.
Besides, in Gothic you handle your sword, your axe and your club/hammer in much the same way, is that very realistic?
quote:
Fact is, I don't know of a single game where you can use shield that has got any sort of combinations or fighting that requires anything but hack'n slash. To be honest I don't think it can be done. If you give me an actual example of a game containing brilliant fighting with shields, I might agree, but so far I have only seen games with block-hit fighting, OR games where the shield just adds to total armour(this could not work in Gothic.. we all know that.. you always use things in gothic, for instance, if you wear plate armour, the arrows bounce off you).
I thought you had played Diablo 2? You know, where the Paladin can bash with his shield? How about Everquest, where you also can bash?
Is it maybe because block/hitting is the way to use a shield?
BTW: GREAT way to compare the superstition of advisors and alchemists of old with spell slinging wizards, history prof. How many times did the advisors of a king go out in the woods and start whacking bandits?
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 4:38 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
quote:
Originally posted by Maylander
The reason why I said "please read what I write" is because somebody is writing something addressed to me, without reading what I just wrote.. sort of answering an old post of mine, instead of reading the last.
The reason why I don't want any sudden changes is because Gothic 1-2 is currenty, in my opinion, the best SP RPG in the world. My cousin, a 12 year old, can finish Diablo II on Hell any day.. it requires absoluttely no skill what-so-ever to complete such a game. The same goes for Morrowind. I like a combat system that is challenging, and I can't stand the "click-to-kill" which you see in every other RPG. Instead of trying to make Gothic more like Morrowind, it should be the other way around.. Morrowind has got a replayability close to zero. Why is that? Is it because the game is small with no foes to fight? No, the game is actually HUGE and the number of creatures is at least twice that of Gothic.. for me, it's because I get bored after hacking for some time.. a shield would limit the combat system of Gothic, and the reason is pretty simple:
Reason:
IF you were given the CHOICE of having a shield, you would ALWAYS use it. Ever walked around in Morrowind with a 1H sword and no shield? At least I haven't.. and in Gothic I don't use the block-hit technique Blake84 because it's rather lousy.. try to block a shadowbeast and you're a dead man.. it only works against humans, orcs, and lizardmen, and even against them there are a lot better ways of fighting.
Fact is, I don't know of a single game where you can use shield that has got any sort of combinations or fighting that requires anything but hack'n slash. To be honest I don't think it can be done. If you give me an actual example of a game containing brilliant fighting with shields, I might agree, but so far I have only seen games with block-hit fighting, OR games where the shield just adds to total armour(this could not work in Gothic.. we all know that.. you always use things in gothic, for instance, if you wear plate armour, the arrows bounce off you).
Shrapnel: That's just it. If you paste a shield on his arm, the whole old system would be have to be changed. You can't swing around doing 360s with a shield on your left arm, fighting with your right. That's why PB would have to develop two different systems for 1H fighting. One for shield-fighting, and one for no-shield fighting. This would take a lot of time, because the two systems would have to be equal, otherwise there wouldn't really be a choice. Now, the choice between speed(1h) and force (2h) is a difficult one, and depends on how you wish to play. Very good balance.
How I play now? Depends. Against orcs, humans and lizards I dodge their run-attack, hit twice, dodge, hit four times, and so on.. against the creatures I do a full four-hit combo, and then back twice before I repeat. Of course I adapt to the situation, but in most cases I can win without getting damaged too much(at least against humans, orcs and lizards.. not getting hurt by a storming shadowbeast is difficult, they always manage to hit you once). I rarely use block at all.
Uh lots of text you writed there, but i think you mostly fear that carefully created combat system would be "simplistic" if they add shields?Fear not they would surely keep the combos and all.That is what makes Gothic "gothic" and that is one of the main reasons why i like gothic so much.I don't want point and click combat.Hell i hate it, i can't stand of it.Morrowind like you said had tad boring combat, thus i got bored rather quickly.So why not improve combat by adding shields for example?
It wouldn't make game any dummer.You still would have 2 handed weapons there, with same blocking method as now.What comes to shield.You wouldn't actually NEED a shield to block, but for a 1-handed fighter it COULD be usefull in certain situations.Still nothing should stop you playing same way as you did before.So players should be able to block with 1 handed weapons same way as now if they want.My point is if you decided to use shield you could block better(block arrows/bolts).you would have a more choise how to play!Why does it sound so horrible?
Ofcourse using a shield should have few drawbacks, like everything else has in gothic.Devs should make it a unique skill, what has to be learned like sneaking or pickpocketing.Perhaps they could make it even leveled skill like blocking arrows and blocking bolts?Then you should have something like 50 dex to be able to use a shield.Other than that hero should be in in master level on 1-handed fighting.finally learning how to use shield should be avaible only to one faction(like paladins).Besides when you think you are carrying shield on one hand it should degrade your strenght-number a bit compared without one.For example without shield equiped your strenght would be 65, but with shield it would be 60(its quite heavy after all).When you put your shield behind your back strenght would be 65 again.
You also asked a game with shields and you are still able to do combos?Well I recommand Blade of darkness(also known as severance blade of darkness here in europe).It has has probably one the best combat system ever created..In that game you were able to use shield and Do combos.
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 6:19 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Dez, the system you are talking about has the same style as I've mentioned several times. Such a system would work great, and in my opinion it's got more good sides than bad sides. It is the only real way to get shields to work in Gothic, but it requires a lot more than some people here think.
You can't simply strap on a shield whenever you use a 1H blade as suggested here. PB would have to develop a third combat system, and make it equal to the two others. If they could do such a thing without wasting another six months on Gothic III, I'd love it. The thing is, I don't think it can be done in a matter of minuttes.
So, we both agree on what kind of shield-system would work in Gothic, and we both agree that "klick-untill-either-your-opponent-dies-or-you-die-of-boredom" combat system sucks, but I think we still disagree on whether or not this kind of "ideal" shield-combat-system could appear in Gothic without taking its toll.. (resources + time).
........
A little note on Diablo II: Look, most of the "Gothic-superfans" are fans of Gothic, and hate Diablo. If PB ever got anything from Diablo they would lose a lot of fans. Diablo has a boring combat-system, and is completely linear. A total opposite of Gothic as an RPG. |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 8:30 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
Glad to see you understood my ideas .
Ofcourse its going to take time to make chances.However no matter what we wish gothic 3 isn't going to be released any time soon..I think they should really add few new elements in the game to keep gothic experience fresh, but at same time it must feel good old gothic.They have lots of time to do that, they definitely should NOT rush new gothic game.There are lots of talented fellows there, if they want something new to be done, they can do it..i will buy gothic 3 whenever it comes out, but i'd like to see few new elements in it.like they added forging weapons and making runes into G2..Surely i'm waiting with tension Gothic3 as you areŽ, but i just want that they think what things can be improved.
Better ending next time wouldn't hurt much either and we all want good old diego back( i just hate his new voice  .
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 10:01 pm |
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Hagen
Counselor of the King
Joined: 18 Jun 2003
Posts: 350
Location: England |
quote:
Originally posted by Dez
I think they should really add few new elements in the game to keep gothic experience fresh, but at same time it must feel good old gothic.
Here here!
_________________
"There are many questions which fools can ask that wise men cannot answer."
--George Polya (1887-1985) |
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Sun Jun 29, 2003 11:22 pm |
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Urnakh
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jun 2002
Posts: 49
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Why are you so hostile about this? IIRC, PB has already promised to include shields in G3. There were no shields in G1&G2 because of engine limitations and for G3 they will use a completely new engine anyway. |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:15 am |
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Shrapnel
Rocket Scientist
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 1325
Location: Newark, NJ |
Hmmm...This thread was made just to say that a shield would have been a nice addition to the realism of gothic.
You guys keep going off course and keep going back to revamping the combat system and how that will ruin the gothic series for all eternity...
so Im gonna head off into the sunset, you guys can keep battling away |
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Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:19 am |
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