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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaz
Hm, at least in my/our pnp rounds we add depth primarily by character/NPC personality/interaction. For me, to enjoy a game like Rolemaster would mean a) a mature group of players who manage to add the 'personality' element and b) playing with about half the rules. But with my regular groups of players the need for stats and rules has decreased substantially. There's no 'I wanna jump the five-meter-high-wall' or 'my character is better than your character' mentality anymore, anyway.
Well, that's one way of adding depth. I've never had any trouble with a 'my character is better than your character' mentality, even though I'm something of a power gamer.
The depth from stat-tuning appears in combat (I like dungeon crawling) and in general problem solving (using your partys abilities). But it can also appear in conversations and general talking (using your charisma/bluffing/intimidating).
Anyway, 62% for Gothic 2 was rather fitting, IMO. MAYBE 70%, but not higher.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
Sun Jul 06, 2003 12:27 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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62% is WAY too low, in fact it's too low that it's almost disgusting. The person who did that review must be retarded.I guess that some people just don't realize what rpg's are all about 
RPG's don't need that many stats because if an rpg has that many stats, most of them become trivial. I would guess that most people would rather have fewer stats as long as they affect the gameplay significantly.
And one more thing, the Gothic series isn't for the power gamer. |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 7:28 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Not really, having as few stats as in Gothic 2 just makes the game simple and degenerated. The game stagnates too quickly.
What is an RPG all about? And what does Gothic deliver that's so special in that area? Can't think of anything.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 8:41 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Well I must apologize cause I got enraged when I saw 62% and gothic 2 in the same sentence  .
-For some people, rpg's are all about party based combat and strategy plus zillions of stats.
-But for others it's about immersing yourslef in a memorable gameworld filled with interesting npc's and quests.
-For some it's about following an intriguing plot.
The person who wrote the review must see that rpg's are about combat, stats and strategy.
Well here area a few things that make gothic special:
-The gameworld is pretty big and is filled with interesting and memorable locations and quests.
- Amazing though occasionaly glitchy AI. *****
- Memorable characters with personalities.
- Combat that alows you to do the fighting. *****
- Multiple solutions for most quests.
- Good but slightly overused story.
- When you improve your fighting skills, you will see and feel the difference.
- Excellent graphics and sound that add a lot of athmosphere.*****
Last edited by hoyp on Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 8:52 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Not really, having as few stats as in Gothic 2 just makes the game simple and degenerated. The game stagnates too quickly.
This is your opinion. I donīt see a connection between 'simple', 'few stats' and 'stagnating gameplay'. If you prefer number crunching thatīs fine. I donīt want to manage my char, I want to play the game. Itīs a matter of taste, nothing more. Do you really want to start a discussion if a bigger or smaller world is better? More or less stats? 1st or 3rd person? TB or RT combat? 2D or 3D?
quote:
What is an RPG all about?
Good question. Feel free to discuss this in the long thread in General CRPG, but not here. Suffice it to say however the guys over there defined RPG, Gothic always was in a RPG category, not RPG-light or whatever.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 8:59 pm |
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ballistic
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Dec 2002
Posts: 44
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to be honest I never thought of Gothic as an RPG in the same sense as, say Fallout or Morrowind which are arguably more free form. if I had to peg it, I'd call it 'an adventure with RPG elements'. and that's fine 'cause I'm having fun regardless.
but, I never felt the need to analyze it either. installed it, it drew me in, spent 2 days playing non-stop. and that's a sign of a great game to me. as a game G2 is at least in the 80s range for me (personally, I found G1 - 98% grade on my scale, more original and intriguing than the sequel)
no it doesn't have the usual "cast 5000 spells, collect 2300 weapons, slay 2000 monsters, max out 1000 skills" on the box. but whatever is there is of high quality and with awesome attention to details.
take the NPC AIs. just the other day I was playing, and in one of the chapters one of the high magician said "I'll meet you back at the monastery" and HE STARTS WALKING THERE! that was just cool, usually the NPCs magically 'teleport' to the meeting point. I even sneacked after the guy for a while as he was walking back home throught the forest, and he would cast fireballs at the critters that would jump at him out of the forest, and would curse at them to himself - "take that you sunof#$@! shouldn't have picked a fight with me."  yeah, it's a small detail but it made me go "whoa, nice". it's one of the few games where it seems the NPCs lead their own lives regardless if I'm around or not.
[edit] I'll spare you many more examples, simply I found the Gothic series raise the bar on the immersivness, and I'm a VERY jaded Rpg fan |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 9:14 pm |
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Xerxes712
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Nov 2002
Posts: 605
Location: Uber die Welt |
Gothic and Deus Ex seem to be kind of the same genre to me. Adventure/RPG. I like Gothic over Morrowind which bored me to death (what a combersome skill system and NPCs never sleep or eat, etc).
Gothic has that realistic feel as if you are there. The NPC are much more intelligent and have a 'real' life in the game. The game is open ended to a point to have fun exploring and trying out different things to solve a puzzle or kill a tough monster. It is a bit rough around the edges but I like it. I aslo enjoy the more 'adult' theme. I really can't stand to play another politically correct watered down kid game RPG anymore. I enjoy the rough, bloody violent, and backstabing, coniving NPCs in Gothic 1 especially and Gothic 2; just like in the real world  . After all, the name IS Gothic = dark times.
I think that UK reviewer just did not like the controls and got frustrated and did not want to take the time to PLAY the game. So many boring RPG come out are just fast, furious click fest and I am the Big Cheese (TM) factor.
Liken to the difference between Turn Based and RTS games. I like the strategy of TB. In a way, Starfleet Battles from Armorillo Design Board based off Star Trek is very fun turn based board game; almost a RPG in a way your starship is.
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Wo ist mein Sumpfkraut? |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 10:03 pm |
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Kirkr
Village Dweller
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Posts: 15
Location: England |
Your discussions about the merits of RPG and RPG/Adventures are very interesting and a good read, but can we get back to the original topic? UK Computer Mag reviews of Gothic 2. I guess I inadvertently started off the discussion with my thoughts about the reviews editor at PC Gamer.
Please post here if you find other UK magazine reviews of the game. I`d like to hear of them. e.g. what about some of the general computing mags like `PC Format` and even `Micro Computer Mart` (they do review a game or two every week). |
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Sun Jul 06, 2003 11:16 pm |
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Shmaugus
High Emperor
Joined: 20 May 2003
Posts: 493
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personally i gave gothic 1 a 95% but bothic 2 i gave a mid 80s to low 90s mainly because of the bad voice acting and dissapointiong last chapter
but besides that it was a great game, oh and did anyone else notice that the 4 dragons in the valley of the mines were voiced by the same person as xardas... or werent they? |
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Mon Jul 07, 2003 6:09 am |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
i am totally with u Xerxes712 we dont need fast deverloped RPGs what is like go kill that guy oke killed get the money now u a big man now next go kill this and no its the end. Gothic has life no other game had a life inside ppl live in that world in other its like a program just watching at u and thats all example Morrowind some ppl even never move from one place they just stand on one place and thats it or Diablo 1 and 2 (no offence i liked Gothic 2 becose of the story but heej it got bored later after go kill that go kill this)
i would give Gothic 95%(it was becose of the bugs) and Gothic 2 90%(first serie had a little bit better story and indeed some voice acting was not so good made example Diego) |
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Mon Jul 07, 2003 2:31 pm |
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SilentSam
Village Dweller
Joined: 02 Jul 2003
Posts: 18
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The overall gameworld is what I find so amazing in Gothic. It lives and breathes on its own, as do all of the characters within it.
I think if you took a better fighting engine like that in Blade of Darkness, and put that into the Gothic gameworld...you'd have a near 100% game in my book.  |
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Fri Jul 11, 2003 5:26 pm |
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Iron Man
Dazed and Confused
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 773
Location: Location Location |
quote:
Originally posted by Xerxes712
I think that UK reviewer just did not like the controls and got frustrated and did not want to take the time to PLAY the game
Exactly. I just bought the issue of pc gamer in question and I don't think he played any further than the first chapter (ie, there are no screenshots of the valley of mines and you only see "me" wearing leather or militia armour. I think that the few references of the higher level armours were inserted, he is wearing a water robe in one of the pics, which isn't possible wothout using marvn.) . I'm no expert on the whole reviewing thing, but do they not try to play untill the END (or as close to the end as possible while still meeting deadlines.) Now where was I? Oh yes, his only "real" complaint was "poor translation". I don't see how that beef alone deserves 62%. Also, he says that "spell effects are underwhelming" Mabye if he bothered to play a bit firther into the game he would have got access to the (literally) earth-shaking "ripple of death". Well I realy can't think of anything else for now, the reviewer didn't realy give me a lot of material to go by. Finally, on the editorial he said that he "realy want's to like it more". Well, there is nothing stopping you.
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Fri Jul 11, 2003 8:43 pm |
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Nicolas
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Odai Plateau |
The first chapter is one of the most entertaining one (I like it), because... you obtain your first levels of exp, doing quests inside the town... running from one place to the other... maybe this guy got bored because he couldn't even smash a Scavenger with his first shot... maybe it was too hard for him... or maybe... he doesn't like RPG's...
I agree about NPC's abilities, movement... (eating and drinking, sleeping, walking... their habitual tasks... of a real person) Excellent Indeed. That's the only thing that Morrowind missed.
this is my point of view...
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"May you find me worthy of your attention" |
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Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:12 pm |
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Iron Man
Dazed and Confused
Joined: 07 Dec 2002
Posts: 773
Location: Location Location |
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolas
or maybe... he doesn't like RPG's...
I wouldnt like to think so, he is the RPG specialist. Besides, there is no point in getting a person who hats rpgs with a passion to review an rpg is there
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This box secretly turns into a picture and laughs at YOU personally when you're not looking. |
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Fri Jul 11, 2003 10:25 pm |
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Daedalus
High Emperor
Joined: 04 Jan 2002
Posts: 2516
Location: Estonia |
maybe he reviewed the game on a bad day when it rained and everything was boring:P |
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Sat Jul 12, 2003 3:08 pm |
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