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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
| What does linear or non-linear mean to you? |
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The topic of the linearity (or conversely the non-linearity) of CRPs is cast out upon the waters by many (if not most) of those attempting any post concerning CRPGs. But what does it mean (to you) to say a CRPG is too linear? In other words - what does linearity (or non-linearity) mean to you? I am most interested in hearing from the thoughtful (and not so thoughtful) posters (and lurkers) here. As an aside, before posting you might want to make sure you at least know what the word linear means if you don't really know (remember, it is NO crime to not know the meaning of a word - but it IS a crime to pretend to know and use it incorrectly  ).
I will start (be assured I have not started this thread with an "answer" in mind) with my own thoughts.
First (and foremost) I believe that it is a generally (and silently) agreed upon notion that it is in some way inherently "bad" for a CRPG to be "too" linear. I am not convinced this is true and would welcome thoughts on this as well. I believe we tend to misinterpret our dislike of other features of a given game as a dislike of the linearity of the game. I do believe it is very possible for a game to be very linear in it's main storyline and still be quite enjoyable.
Linear storyline (for a CRPG) to me means that the player's character must progress through the main story in a set pattern. That is, the story will "evolve" for the character in one manner and only one manner. Generally this also means that game events (at least those pertaining to the main storyline) must be encountered in a set sequence AND those events must be handled by the character in one and only one manner.
Now, if the game has numerous side stories (quests for instance) the game might appear to be non-linear (and I believe these games are frequently misinterpreted as non-linear by many players) but if one examines the main storyline carefully one is likely to find that it is indeed linear.
That is enough of my thoughts for now - there is truly MUCH to say and discuss.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:06 pm |
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DzD
Unknown
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 7140
Location: Sweden |
| Re: What does linear or non-linear mean to you? |
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quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
(and not so thoughtful)
Ok, do you mean me?  
A linear game to me is when the story line continues and donīt change when you play it again.
With other words: A linear game to me is when you canīt change the story and you canīt go where ever you want. You just follow one path all the time.
A non linear game to me, is when you can change the story and maybe finish the game with some other endings. Or you can jump of the story and do some other quests (like in Morrowind.)
But
I donīt like the game if it is too linear or too non-linear.
_________________
There once was a youngster, DzD
Whose avatars numbered infinity
But I must admit
His latest, a hit
Cuz the Little One's a mystery to me
Written by - dteowner |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 2:15 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
A linear game; Diablo 1 and 2, both games are very linear, and very boring if you play it many times over(at least it did to me).
A linear game is a game where you follow certain quests with basically no space to move around, and no sidequests.
A non-linear game on the other hand is a game like Gothic, but even Gothic it isn't non-linear enough for me; if the selection of Camps had any difference to the game(quests and so on), it would be non-linear enough.
Any true non-linear game needs a huge amount of side-quests, and a story that actually "adepts" to the player, and the choices the player makes.
Unfortunately, I know not of such a game. |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:04 pm |
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Gomez The Mad
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 06 Jun 2002
Posts: 304
Location: Camp of Old |
Linear, non-linear. It makes no difference to me. As long as the game has a begining and an end. It doesn't matter how you get between those two points, as long as your having fun.
_________________
His thoughts are whack.
He's "Mad so he's talkin back.
Brainwashedfrom rock and rap.
No self control, he just lets his emotions go.
~The Definition of a Madman
=Member of the Flamers' Guild= |
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Mon Jun 10, 2002 9:13 pm |
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Erb Duchenne
Slayer
Joined: 08 Jun 2002
Posts: 987
Location: malaysia |
| Re: What does linear or non-linear mean to you? |
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quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Linear storyline (for a CRPG) to me means that the player's character must progress through the main story in a set pattern.
Well... I think most people have the concept of linearity. But you can't exactly call Gothic on the whole linear or non linear. For example, the storyline is pretty linear...same steps, end up banishing the Sleeper.
On the other hand character building is non-linear. You don't start as a mage, ranger or warrior. But you slowly choose your path to one of the three, somewhere in between the three, or all three (if you're crazy enough).
Thus various aspects of gothic are linear (especially everything pertaining to the storyline), but some things are also not. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:39 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
Erb, you are right - which is in part why I started the thread. Taking Gothic as a good example, most people I have seen posting claim that Gothic is totally linear. This, then, got me thinking about what we really mean by linearity in a game and whether people even understood linearity or were (perhaps) confusing other game elements with the concept of linearity.
The Gothic main story is VERY linear - but then, so are most (if not all) game main storylines. Is there a storyline out there that is truly non-linear for us to compare? Even the much touted Morrowind's main storyline (well, it really only has one storyline) is linear (at least as far as I can tell so far).
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:11 pm |
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Rawis
Gorthaur
Joined: 01 Apr 2002
Posts: 1861
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Linear to me is when you can only follow one way, and not do what you would like to do. Like the most FPS games. Dungeon Siege was very linear...  And in games like Dungeon Siege and Diablo, you just repeat the same things until you finish the game, pretty boring i think.
Arcanum is one non-linear RPG games... you can compelat a quest in different ways, you can develop your character as you like it, good/evil... and you can even finish the game in alot of different ways. Thats what i like in a RPG game.  |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 4:00 pm |
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ezorn33
Village Dweller
Joined: 24 Jun 2002
Posts: 6
Location: Cambridge, MA |
(Just a note: this is my first post here. I've always been an adventure gamer (with sports games on the side), but over the last couple of years I've become bored with the standard point-and-click, and so I've moved on to action-adventures like Outcast, Thief, and King's Quest: Mask of Eternity. Finally, I decided to try a 3d action-adventure-rpg--Gothic--my first rpg since the old Quest for Glory series. If anyone knows of any Gothic-like games, please let me know. I don't want anything too complicated though...)
I feel I may be in the minority on the linearity question, because I'm far more likely to find a game too non-linear than too linear. This doesn't mean I want total linearity, like old console side-scrollers; to the contrary, I love exploring, particularly in the 3d worlds of recent games. I'm totally transfixed by the amazing progress from 2d to 3d -- it's so cool to be in a physically realistic world like that. But like I said, I don't want it to be too non-linear, for one reason: when I finish a game, I want to feel like I've experienced it fully. I don't want to HAVE to replay it in order to get everything out of it (RPGs are a bit different, if -- like in QFG -- you can play as different classes and thus have three really distinct experiences). I don't like feeling as though I've missed a whole segment of the game -- I can deal with a few missed side-quests, but I don't want to miss full endings, locations, etc.
Does anyone else feel this way? |
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 12:54 am |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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quote:
Originally posted by ezorn33
I can deal with a few missed side-quests, but I don't want to miss full endings, locations, etc.
Does anyone else feel this way?
This is exactly the reason I've become an explorer. Out of pure terror of MAYBE missing a side quest, a new piece of equipment, an interesting npc, I thoroughly search through every world I encounter. At least I'm having fun doing it!
Linearity to me is when you're forced by the game to do certain things in a certain order and there's nothing else you can do but follow the game's "instructions". (Dungeon Siege)
Non-linearity is when you have the choice of trying to solve the main plot, but you can do it in your own pace and you're allowed total freedom to do whatever you want "on the side" meanwhile. (Gothic)
A story will always be linear, which to me is a good thing. Sure, the developers can make multiple endings, but that's only branches off the same tree. Just as long as the world you're currently in feels free and there's no time limit to the main quest + you have other fun things to do (other than the main plot), I'm content. The best example of this (that I have experienced so far) must be Wasteland. |
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Mon Jun 24, 2002 4:29 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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I think that various aspects of a game can be discussed in terms of linearity, and some aspects of a game may be very linear (like main story), but others can be non-linear (like general non-main-story exploration and quests, and quest resolution, and character interaction/development).
The main story of a game is almost always linear, or at most multi-branched. The most non-linear main story of the game I've heard of comes from Star Ocean (Playstation), which reportedly had over 80 different endings based on what you did during the game (a lot of the endings were similar, but there were some significant differences). Games like Gothic are multi-branched for part of the game (for a brief period after you join your camp), but then segue into linear. Still, NO main story in a CRPG is non-linear; non-linearity so far has been the exclusive domain of pen and paper RPGs, and perhaps, to a certain extent, Neverwinter Nights (with a VERY good DM and mod, I imagine).
Another aspect of a game that has varying amounts of linearity is the exploration capacity of the game. Some games have very few sidequests and areas to explore outside of the main quest, while others have a lot. The key to being non-linear in this regard is the ability to explore these places WHEN you want to and IF you want to. I think Morrowind has the greatest amount of non-linear exploration and quests, even though its main story is as linear as the final fantasy series.
The final aspect of a game that encounters linearity/non-linearity is the character. Some games have a fixed development path for character growth (such as Final Fantasy series, up through 7-8.), while others leave this totally up to you (Gothic, Wizardry, etc.). Also, how your character interacts with people and your own party can be preset or have a certain amount of freedom, such as with Baldur's Gate II and the infamous romances 
All in all, non-linearity in exploration capacity and character development are a good thing, for most of the cases I can think of. It's always fun to believe you have some say in where you go and what you decide to do (side quests, etc.), and how your character(s) grow. This is what defines a true computer RPG, in my opinion, because non-linearity in the main story is virtually impossible to achieve without an arbiter (DM, a la NVN). The Final Fantasy series has often felt like an interactive movie, and I can't really consider it to be a true CRPG (although the latest incarnation did seem to offer some of that).
As for non-linearity in the main story of a CRPG, I've seen very good games that go for the unilinear (one main path) and multilinear (several) route, so it doesn't matter as much to me. And I've never seen a NON-linear main story game, so I'll just have to settle for non-linearity in the exploration and characters... which is enough to satisfy this fan
- Wind |
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Tue Jul 16, 2002 6:20 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Yes i agree Windwalking. Sometimes people think linearity in CRPGs just mean the way game's plot or story development (moving from point A to B, or point B to c) such as in Diablo series. We need to consider these kind of CRPGs also tend to having a very limited quests beside main stories, less characters interaction (more focus on skills/abilities development), and restricted character activity (kill monsters, bashing barrel/container looking for valuable items). Best recent examples of this category/pseudo-CRPGs for CRPGs gamer including numerous Diablo's clone such as Throne of Darkness & Dungeon Siege.
In Morrowind, it main story/plot is still in the context of moving from point A to B, or point B to C. But the likeness of Diablo & etc to Morrowind is limited if we have bigger perspective on what's linearity/non-linearity. We will see there are many other things that clearly set apart Morrowind from Diablo. E.g there's far more character class & races to choose from & more importantly, you can develop your character however you want, such as mages but still wearing armor & using warhammers; or the way finishing game likes just let your character relatively weak & still beating the game (Dagoth Ur clearly not as tough as you expect, you even could try to avoid him), or in another way - build a fearsome/impressive main character. And there's much more stories and background stories if you pay attention to/read all the books available (rather than try to play Morrowind in Diablo's style).
Based on this perspective, certainly there are several more CRPGs that share more similarity with Morrowind; e.g = Baldur's Gates series, Gothic, Planescape Torment, etc. Thus the definition of "non-linearity" should mean includes more minor story/subplot/subquest from main stories/main plot, deeper stories, chance of taking different path in plot (becoming evil/good), more freedom in gameplay, & more emphasize in character interaction.
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Tue Jul 16, 2002 9:37 pm |
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