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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
.Twinfalls:
Of course there are racial differences in attributes. Not sure what you are suggesting.
Why is it a problem for a Mage to join a fighters Guild? This isnt D&D. However, the system obviously penalizes your attempt to cross class by diluting skills leaving you all around weak.
Why does it matter that your clothes and armour are exclusive? Select the pants or the Greaves or go naked. The forge swords in Gothic 2 were low level crap. By crafting I meant enchanting and poisoning weapons - bad terminology on my part. There are damage and encumberance differences between the weapons. Not all magic is direct damage - in fact most is not. Not sure what you mean.
Has Alchemy changed from Morrowind? I had no complaints there. Merchantile I havent explored.
Again, this is a sandbox game. There arent alot of complicated plotlines like other more linear RPG's including the Gothic series. The Gothic series has some freedom, but ultimately it is a linear plot progression. ES is a different thing altogether.
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"For Innos!" |
Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:41 pm |
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.Twinfalls
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It's the other way around. The Gothic games were non-linear, at least for the first two chapters in each game (remember how the main quest forked between factions).
Morrowind is actually completely linear (the main quest is the same a->b->c, always.
The same with Oblivion.
Don't be fooled - making a game free of any real design, so that you can 'go anywhere' and 'do anything' (you can do that with wordpad, by the way), does *not* mean it's 'non-linear'.
Compare Daggerfall's MQ path, with Morrowind's.
As for the other stuff, yes, I agree there are role-playing options in this game.
But they are so, so weak. And such a watering-down (instead of an improvement!) of the choices you had available to define your character in Daggerfall. |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:59 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Lol, Twinfall, this time you have outdone yourself on your crusade *g*
quote:
Are there significant differences between races in terms of abilities? Do they even look much different from the head down?
A lot. Apart from different starting stats, the racial abilities are as different as they can be. And I have yet to see an Imperial with a tail, to answer your second question.
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Are there meaningful decisions to make about which Guilds to join? Or can you join them all? Do they ever conflict (as for example a Fighters and an Assassin's guild should?) Does doing certain quests for one guild see rival guilds send assassins to kill you? (as happened in Daggerfall)?
Certainly. While it is easy to be with the Fighter's Guild and the Mage's Guild (as a Battlemage, for example), it's harder to be in the Fighter's Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Didn't it come to your attention that you will be expelled from the FG when you have enough bounty on your head (something that will happen sooner or later when you play the dark side)?
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Can you wear your clothing with your armour?
While you can't, I wasn't aware that this now belongs to the definition of an "RPGCodex-approved" RPG 
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Do skill perks vary at all between melee weapons? Does it really matter whether you have an axe or mace or sword or dagger?
No. And yes, certainly. They differ in speed, damage and how far they reach.
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Can you develop a specific ability in two-handed sword wielding, or in faster re-load of a bow, to differentiate your character from others, for example?
No, but since when is this an essential part of differentiation? I always thought that this happens by developing different skills (as in 99% of all RPGs)?
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Is 'investing in stores' (as the sole extension of the mercantile skill) really about investing, or is it just a way of increasing the amount a store will spend on one item (even though they always have infinite gold)?
It is NOT the sole extension of the mercantile skill. At least get your facts right when bashing, ok? For example, another extension of the mercantile skill is that with a certain level, the condition of an item is ignored when you sell it. Furthermore, the higher your skill is, the better you can haggle.
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What crafting? Can you forge swords like you could in Gothic?
The swords you crafted in Gothic were pretty useless, weren't they? You always found better weapons before you were good enough in crafting. BTW, there are some nice crafting mods out already, for bows and armor.
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extensive magic system
Which allow real strategy in battles, or just another form of shoot-and-dodge?
Certainly. The magic system allows a lot of real strategy in battles. Even the melee system allows it - in fact you will be pretty dead without strategy *g*
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alchemy
Which is available to every character, so no decision needs to be made, again?
Oh, then try the difference between a nord having alchemy as major and a breton. And what funny argument is that, that it is bad that every character can choose alchemy?
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Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Apr 27, 2006 9:44 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
Damn .Twinfall, please don't publish Oblivions quest map. I think we all know what that will look like. I've finished the main quest and... point taken - major shortcoming.
I love Oblivion but this makes me want to try Daggerfall!
Rendelius, I agree with your points - thanks for flushing some of the facts out. In .Twinfalls defense he admitted that that several of those points were in fact RPG features. FYI that's the first and last time I'll defend a Codex junkie! 
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"For Innos!" |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:05 am |
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Seven from the Codex
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dajjer
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
Okay fine, he's not on staff here, BTW, why the hell does he have RPG Dot Logo?
As for the comment, well it's more from fustration than from wanting to target RPG Dot, I mean after you ask a well worded question like 3 or 4 times and all you get is the run around wouldn't you get fustrated - at a certain point it's easier to insult some one for being stupid than to try and debate with them. In case you didn't know, I do have a lot of respect for you and the work you do, so if you want an apology you've got it.
Wait a minute, your are calling me stupid. You are so funny on so many levels. And yes I am not a staffer and have never pretended to be one. But I'm on a mission now and I guess I gotta go find me a overglowing postive review of Oblivion and trash it and then I get street cred with the codex folks. Silly me 
Well yeah, after what you've just posted and since after my numerous posts you still don't realize what's at issue and what is being asked - Yes, I do think you're plenty stupid, happy?
@ Dhurin, now do see how it's easy to get fustrated? |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:29 am |
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Dajjer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles area |
quote:
Originally posted by Shevchyk
"I gotta go find me a overglowing postive review of Oblivion and trash it and then I get street cred with the codex folks."
That's not at all what you need to do. This isn't a question of "trashing" or "not trashing" X/Y/Z game. This is not a question of reputation. What's sought after by at least some of the writers of RPGCodex* (if not all of them) is a desire to see more videogame journalists/critics think critically, rather than pandering to either a) the designers of a particular game, b) a perceived crowd of fans whose adoration has gotten out of hand to such a degree that they have difficulty in acknowledging the faults present in a given videogame, c) ad payers. Furthermore, they wish to see players exhibit a bit more critical thought when buying or playing any particular game, to acknowledge the flaws and inconsistencies between what was promised by the developers and what the final product was.
Their basic, core desire is to see audiences exhibit an increase in critical thinking and audiences and critics alike to show a little more intellectual honesty about a given product.
*I do not speak for them, and am merely expressing my interpretation of their thoughts and actions thus far.
Okay Shev, follow my posts in this thread. My initial post was thought to be flawed because I had not ever made any comments on any of the numerous positive reviews on Oblivion. And since it appears I came out of the blue to point out problems with the Codex review, where was I when all the so called over hyped reviews were being put out.
In retrospect, I just now understand the posters point. He / She thought I was an RPG dot staffer and gave my post more weight than it probably deserved. And now I can sort of see that view point.
Still, even if I was a staffer, and this was my very first post on the topic, It is completely irrational to say my view point was flawed just because I never pointed out the other reviews that in this posters mind over hyped the game.
Just re read the thread, their own words damn them. |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 3:38 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
Damn .Twinfall, please don't publish Oblivions quest map.
It's not Oblivion's quest map, it's Morrowind's. |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:10 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
the racial abilities are as different as they can be.
Truly? Well, they'd have to be pretty different to make up for the loss of Daggerfall's advantage/disadvantage system.
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And I have yet to see an Imperial with a tail, to answer your second question.
Sure. Pity they're all the very same mesh though.
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While it is easy to be with the Fighter's Guild and the Mage's Guild (as a Battlemage, for example), it's harder to be in the Fighter's Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. Didn't it come to your attention that you will be expelled from the FG when you have enough bounty on your head (something that will happen sooner or later when you play the dark side)?
Yes, but bounties can be easily removed.
And you can, as Chief of the Dark Brotherhood, go to the Fighter's Guild (which are now a 'force for Good') and join up, no problem.
There are now no restrictions on joining guilds, and so no decisions - which is the first time in TES (though I can't remember about Arena). Rendelius - remember Daggerfall? Remember how doing certain quests for some guilds, such as temples, would see rival temples send assassins out to get you? Does this ever happen in Oblivion?
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quote:
Can you wear your clothing with your armour?
While you can't, I wasn't aware that this now belongs to the definition of an "RPGCodex-approved" RPG
It doesn't. I was simply pointing out how, instead of exanding your options, they've made TES even *more* restrictive. I thought this was meant to be all about choices? Where is the freedom?
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Do skill perks vary at all between melee weapons? Does it really matter whether you have an axe or mace or sword or dagger?
No. And yes, certainly. They differ in speed, damage and how far they reach.
So all perks are exactly the same for all melee weapons. How creative. How unique you must feel as a Master of Axe, having only the exact same perks as the Master of Sword, the Master of Dagger, etc. What role-playing!
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quote:
Can you develop a specific ability in two-handed sword wielding, or in faster re-load of a bow, to differentiate your character from others, for example?
No, but since when is this an essential part of differentiation? I always thought that this happens by developing different skills (as in 99% of all RPGs)?
Again, it's not essential, but it illustrates the lack of roleplaying. And given that:
1. The number of skills has been halved since Daggerfall, and
2. You can develop all skills in this game, since there are no class restrictions (and are encouraged to develop your minors due to the dumbassed multiplier),
- it's an even more glaring lack of roleplaying choice. Where's the freedom, Rendelius? The freedom to choose an expert in the two-hander? A quick-shooting bow-master?
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It is NOT the sole extension of the mercantile skill. At least get your facts right when bashing, ok? For example, another extension of the mercantile skill is that with a certain level, the condition of an item is ignored when you sell it.
Well, I stand corrected. How deep. And you admit that 'investing in stores' is rubbish, it's not investing at all. It's a dumb way of getting merchants to pay more for an item, even though they have unlimited gold. Even Daggerfall had actual investing - in the form of depositing gold with banks to earn interest.
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Furthermore, the higher your skill is, the better you can haggle.
As Mercantile has always been. What else would there be to it?
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What crafting? Can you forge swords like you could in Gothic?
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The swords you crafted in Gothic were pretty useless, weren't they?
Were they? At least Gothic gave me the freedom to make swords. That's a 5 year old game.
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BTW, there are some nice crafting mods out already, for bows and armor.
Ah yes, the mods to the rescue, which tend to clash, and cause all sorts of headaches. And how about Xbox360 users?
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Certainly. The magic system allows a lot of real strategy in battles. Even the melee system allows it - in fact you will be pretty dead without strategy *g*
I'll accept your word on this one, it seems that combat is indeed a lot better this time.
Pity they're focusing on real-time action but have yet to re-implement Daggerfall's analogue swing (ie you could control the sword in real-time, including the direction and speed of slashes and thrusts).
You do get my point though - yes, there are some role-playing options here. But why are there *less* than Daggerfall had? Why aren't they expanded beyond what that 10 year old game offered? |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:05 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Hi Twinfalls, I would like to just pick up the guild restrictions point, if I may.
I am not happy that they simply removed guild restrictions. And I certainly don't approve of the guilds meshing so little. But to be honest, I don't think I have ever played a game that has really done it the way I would like it done. I don't want hard skill-rank requirements back like in MW, nor hard one point deccisions for houses or guilds as in gothic or for the Houses in MW. I want the guilds to really test you, and if you CAN cheat around their tests, then more power to you, it's roleplaying. If I manage to keep my dark brotherhood activity secret and decide to take over the fighters guild too, I should be able to try - it should just present a challenge within the game. Of course that's quite a task for designers, I realize that, but I guess what I am saying is that the true ideal to aspire to lies neither with Oblivions "do all" nor with classic "choose your path", but somewhere in the middle.
As to DF: I can not remember if DF had skill requirements for progression (though I think I do remember limits for becoming a member, but they were low) - but I am pretty sure that you would be able to progress through e.g. the mages-guild quests without ever using magic - because the few quests that you needed a spell for, you could very well reject and continue with something else - there is obviously a lot of potential to do something different here. E.g. I remember the mage school proving grounds level in Ultima Underworld 2 - something like that would be spiffy.
BTW half the skills of Daggerfall - well I don't agree with the skill amalgamation at all, but that claim really doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because it includes all the language skills that were never properly implemented. Still, i agree with the spirit of your complaint. |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 1:56 pm |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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Hello GhanBuriGhan,
quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
I don't want hard skill-rank requirements back like in MW, nor hard one point deccisions for houses or guilds as in gothic or for the Houses in MW. I want the guilds to really test you, and if you CAN cheat around their tests, then more power to you, it's roleplaying. If I manage to keep my dark brotherhood activity secret and decide to take over the fighters guild too, I should be able to try - it should just present a challenge within the game. Of course that's quite a task for designers, I realize that, but I guess what I am saying is that the true ideal to aspire to lies neither with Oblivions "do all" nor with classic "choose your path", but somewhere in the middle.
I completely agree. Oblivion has taken the weakest, laziest, dumbest way out - by having nothing at all in this regard, no limits, no reactivity by the game-world. Then again, in Oblivion it seems there isn't even any reaction from fellow NPCs in a guild when you're their big boss, so it's probably too much to expect anything remotely sophisticated from Bethesda developers.
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As to DF: I can not remember if DF had skill requirements for progression
There were - whilst there were no requirements for obtaining new quests, you couldn't rise in rank without skill advancement.
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but I am pretty sure that you would be able to progress through e.g. the mages-guild quests without ever using magic - because the few quests that you needed a spell for, you could very well reject and continue with something else - there is obviously a lot of potential to do something different here. E.g. I remember the mage school proving grounds level in Ultima Underworld 2 - something like that would be spiffy.
Exactly. Daggerfall at least had Mages Guild quests that actually had something to do with magic (we need you to summon a Daedra). But, yet again, the pattern from new Bethesda is 'don't improve it - chuck it right out, instead!
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BTW half the skills of Daggerfall - well I don't agree with the skill amalgamation at all, but that claim really doesn't stand up to scrutiny, because it includes all the language skills that were never properly implemented.
Same thing. 'Don't improve, just throw it away'. What options are there for diplomat characters now? Just play persuasion tetris (for which your skill level makes no difference once you get good at it)?
Language skills in DF were cool. You weren't attacked by the creatures whose language you knew well. Combine that with the climbing, swimming, backstab, and streetwise skills, and you had a character which really felt like a cool thief with the smarts to avoid fighting unless neccessary. |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:03 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
I completely agree. Oblivion has taken the weakest, laziest, dumbest way out - by having nothing at all in this regard, no limits, no reactivity by the game-world. Then again, in Oblivion it seems there isn't even any reaction from fellow NPCs in a guild when you're their big boss, so it's probably too much to expect anything remotely sophisticated from Bethesda developers.
Oh, there definitely is a reaction from fellow NPCs in a guild in Oblivion BUT (!warning, spoilers ahead!) you need to wear the guild leader's insignia/clothes to spark any reaction from them.
This is pretty funny in a retarded way actually since you can equip/unequip the clothes while standing at 2ft in front of some NPCs and they'll go ... *equip Gray Cowl of Nocturnal* ... 'OMG, the Gray Fox himself!' ... *unequip Gray Cowl of Nocturnal* ... 'Hey, whassup, dude!' ... *equip Gray Cowl of Nocturnal* ... 'OMG, the Gray Fox himself!' ... *unequip Gray Cowl of Nocturnal* ... 'Hey, whassup, dude!' ...
They need to fix that along with a lot of other AI flaws...   |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:59 pm |
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Dajjer
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 Jul 2005
Posts: 49
Location: Los Angeles area |
That is so funny.
I too an not at all impressed with Oblivions AI. And if the whole purpose was to make the world seem more alive, well frankly, they failed because Gothic's scripted AI seemed far more alive to me. And that game is 4 years old. |
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Fri Apr 28, 2006 9:35 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
What they don't get: There was a lot wrong with Arena, Daggerfall and Morrowind. There is a lot wrong with Oblivion - but the whole is more than the sum of the parts. And that's why each and every of those games is a classic, including Oblivion.
Well said!
Nothing is perfect. When you make a big deal over every tiny little falw, you can make anything sound crappy. |
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Sat May 06, 2006 9:29 pm |
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One of the crapiest pc rpg's i have ever played morrowind being the first. After doing alot of generic crappy quests for most of the guilds (go to this and that cave and pick up this item weeee )
Couldnt even bother with the mages guild quests and the single player is just as bad i couldnt even finish the main quest because its just to boring and generic and i was at the part where you go into the great gate and weeee crashes.
This game easily gets a reward for me for being one of the most unstable boring pieces of crap ever made (Morrowind being even worse)
-Boring voice actors
-ALL generic npc's with same faces and clothing and voices no one memorable
-Dungeons and caves are extremely boring and ALL look the same and no point in exploring because of the level scailing and its all crap you find any way few gold coins and even iron daggers haha no thanks.
-Extremely generic uncreative dull quests go to this or that cave make you're way threw pick up an item or talk to a npc or loot a dead corpse repeat this for pretty much EVERY quest wow talk about creative lol (what do you expect from Americans its all about kill kill kill type mentalities focus 90% on killing things and 10% on story and quests lol)
-Story main quest pretty works works the same and is dull and generic like the sidequests you're doing the same stupid things whats really wrong with this game is they TRY to make the sidequests or main quests have like a story to it but fail you're doing the same generic thing in EVERY quest and then you just read some little file and they think it makes it all better lol i wanna see some flashy cutscenes and CG movies.
Overall you got a big disaster here dont waste you're money on this if you hated morrowind you will hate this and if you're unsure download the game do not waste money by buying this so the beth can feed their staff with mcdonalds meals.
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Sun May 07, 2006 8:20 pm |
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Guest
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^
Forgot to add:
-Retarded AI pretty much just stand in one spot get stuck in walls or items. |
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Sun May 07, 2006 8:21 pm |
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